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 What is a government?

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The Fool
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:27 pm

-Psychonaut wrote:
I always find it strange when people tell me to relax online, especially when there is nothing to indicate that I am not relaxed?
Generally I assume it is because they think it may provoke me, but not in this instance?

So anyway, I was just asking that since you think the only way to get the muck off is to drain the cesspool, do you have any notion of how it may be drained?

Or do you think it may be fruitful to pick off muck in the mean time?

Personally I'm just waiting for the system to implode on itself.

( And while I'm waiting I just want to have some fun. Twisted Evil )

Presently I think it is a fruitful endeavor as you say to pick off the muck in the meantime. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Wed Jan 21, 2009 11:16 pm

Psychonaut, you see how asking impossible questions about the future might look a bit control-freak?

Having never destroyed civilization before, I don't know right where the plug is.

I guess it is either a cut off of resources which will then undermine the status system; or a fatal crack in the systemic neurosis.

What seems clear is that the system depends most of all (only?) on physical things, therefore there will have to be a great deal of de-development. This can mean "imploding" buildings, bridges, banks, schools etc., or it may be an orderly disassembly. Orderly is however unlikely as the master-cast will surely be reluctant to part with their property -- especially when that property is their person -- because as much as metropoles and ports are physical things, and libraries and code books, culture is stored as a physical thing, like a virus, in the physical brain of people.

So what will the cesspit be "scraped" and scrubbed with? Blood.

What will it be filled with? Rubble and corpses.



The Fool wrote:
Personally I'm just waiting for the system to implode on itself.

( And while I'm waiting I just want to have some fun. Twisted Evil )
It may implode of itself.

But you might be waiting a long time, it might last one-thousand years.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:43 am

You responded to my suggestion that it is worth picking the muck off by speaking about pulling the plug etc., I was only wanting to clarify if you thought it was worth going about the process of picking the muck off in the mean time, as from your wording I wasn't sure if you were taking an 'all or nothing' approach. The fact that you seemed so enthusiastically behind the 'all' made me wonder if you had a particular plan or notion of how to go about it.

I was not intending to 'ask impossible questions', as I rarely know if a question is impossible before it has been asked and pondered.

Personally I am not in favor of the destruction of 'civilisation', only the structures of control and dominance. Personally I only care about those within my own life, but I recognise that it will be difficult to rid myself of those, without them being rolled out of a great deal of other peoples' lives too. However, I would not wish to impose on peoples' autonomy, so even if I could destroy it for everyone I would not; it would be wholly more preferable that they participate themselves. As you say, the structures of control and dominance cannot topple without some fundamental shift in peoples' psyche; some 'fatal crack in the systemic neurosis'.

It is possible that some movement this way is already occuring, though perhaps due to altogether different reasons and for the purposes and interests of some other group. Stigmatisation and the status of public perception is beginning to move, such people who care about public perception of themselves may suffer a reduced public perception. Perhaps this is the crack where the crowbar should be inserted.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:50 am

Government is designed to allow the majority to not have to think too hard. All social creatures have a governing body.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:52 am

And all swans are white.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:15 am

Are they? And here I thought I saw a few black ones Cool
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:31 am

Then I assume you got my point?
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:34 am

Of course. Generalization.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:24 am

Quote :
Ivan says:

It may implode of itself.

But you might be waiting a long time, it might last one-thousand years.

True. So I guess I'll just have fun as it is all slowly going down.

If there is anything that one can get from history it is that every civilization ends.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:28 am

-Psychonaut wrote:
You responded to my suggestion that it is worth picking the muck off by speaking about pulling the plug etc., I was only wanting to clarify if you thought it was worth going about the process of picking the muck off in the mean time, as from your wording I wasn't sure if you were taking an 'all or nothing' approach. The fact that you seemed so enthusiastically behind the 'all' made me wonder if you had a particular plan or notion of how to go about it.

I was not intending to 'ask impossible questions', as I rarely know if a question is impossible before it has been asked and pondered.

Personally I am not in favor of the destruction of 'civilisation', only the structures of control and dominance. Personally I only care about those within my own life, but I recognise that it will be difficult to rid myself of those, without them being rolled out of a great deal of other peoples' lives too. However, I would not wish to impose on peoples' autonomy, so even if I could destroy it for everyone I would not; it would be wholly more preferable that they participate themselves. As you say, the structures of control and dominance cannot topple without some fundamental shift in peoples' psyche; some 'fatal crack in the systemic neurosis'.

It is possible that some movement this way is already occuring, though perhaps due to altogether different reasons and for the purposes and interests of some other group. Stigmatisation and the status of public perception is beginning to move, such people who care about public perception of themselves may suffer a reduced public perception. Perhaps this is the crack where the crowbar should be inserted.

Quote :
Personally I am not in favor of the destruction of 'civilisation', only the structures of control and dominance.

I would argue that the only way for the structures of control and dominance to be destroyed would be the entire destruction of civilization. ( Which I largely support.)

( I'm somewhat of a anarcho-primitivist I guess you can say.)

Even in the state of anarchy there would still be structures of control and dominance the key differences would be that such structures wouldn't be enforced by a central agency. Twisted Evil

If one wants to look at a great example of anarchism look at ancient Iceland.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:46 am

Celtic Ireland was certainly one of the situations that has been closest to Anarchism.

As I said elsewhere, my politics are a direction not a destination*. Breaking up the chunks of control is the way forward, no single man should have as much power as the President of the USA or the CEO of a multinational corporation.

A World of city states would be a definite step in the right direction.

*Though I perhaps split it in two; primarily there is personal development through the reduction of governance, and secondarily there is the fostering of an environment conducive to this process, combined with the acceptance that in order to maintain my autonomy I may have to abandon myself entirely to the whims of others.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:49 am

Quote :
Celtic Ireland was certainly one of the situations that has been closest to Anarchism.

Another great example.

Quote :
As I said elsewhere, my politics are a direction not a destination.

Can you explain that? I'm interested.

Quote :
Breaking up the chunks of control is the way forward, no single man should have as much power as the President of the USA or the CEO of a multinational corporation.

Nods.

Quote :
A World of city states would be a definite step in the right direction.

Actually let me correct myself for historical accuracy: Ancient Greece had a effective policy until Philip Of Macedon and Alexander the great later on destroyed the city state system.

The Peloponnesian war however was the start in the direction of central government style within Athens.

Actually the birth of the centeral state government as we know it versus the city state system of feudalism was born out of ancient Persia.

After the defeat of the Spartans the Athenians adopted it as their own and later on so did the Romans after conquering ancient Macedonia.

As we all know the ancient Romans had a profound impact on the rest of the Europe and most of the ancient world whereby that is how the city state governing style became eradicated for a more central style of government.

In the great American civil war much later on in history the confederacy tried to revive a style of government very similar to the city state system where state territories would rule themselves but as we all know their attempt at rebellion was met with destruction by the federal union army.


Last edited by The Fool on Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:03 pm

-Psychonaut wrote:
A World of city states would be a definite step in the right direction.
Ironic.

Because that is exactly where Futurism is headed.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:04 pm

Quote :
Can you explain that? I'm interested.

It is unrealistic to hope to create a perfect system, and so we should not. Suppose even that we do, we cannot ensure that it will last. Even if we could propogate it globally, would/should we want to? I think not.

If we are not going to be satisfied until x, y and z conditions are met then either our conditions are going to be met, in which case we have set our sights too low, or they are not, in which case they are set too high.

There is no reason not to take stock and appreciate what we have, but doing so does not mean that we should not abandon it at the first opportunity for something better.

In describing conditions for a perfect society I do not describe what I need, I am simply creating a yardstick which I can place next to what I have, so that I can see what may most fruitfully be done to improve my lot.

Quote :
Ancient Greece had a effective policy until Demosthenes in Athens destroyed the city state system with the defeat of the Spartans via the Peloponnesian war.

Required in any break up of power is the guarantee that it will remain broken up. How can this be achieved? Imagine all of Europe had become city states, the simplest way would be that every city state is signed up to a mutual pact ensuring that they will unify for one thing only: the prevention of the expansion of any individual city state or the unification of any number.
Add a guarantee of freedom of movement, and people will vote with their feet, creating an evolutionary imperative for political system necessitating that they only have the manpower to survive if they actually fulfil people's requirements.
Sprinkle on some free love and you have one big happy pluralistic pie in flavors to suite every taste.


Last edited by -Psychonaut on Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:05 pm

Futurism meaning what?
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:09 pm

Please note I had to edit my last post for historical accuracy. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: What is a government?   Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:57 pm

The Fool wrote:


It does. Read Plato's Republic under the character Thrasymachus.

It doesn't read Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness" or any other book that disagrees with you. Anyway you will have to be a little more specific , i.e. translation, paragraph, internet link.... It is a big fucking book.


Quote :
Have you never benefited from the law? You don't benefit from say, sound ordinances? You would rather be up all night listening to you nieghbors hip hop music?

Such ordinances merely exist to keep people pacified under control.

If such ordinances didn't exist you would see neighbors fight and killing neighbors.
[/quote]

that's pretty much my point.


Quote :


Oh yes it does. It's called the status quo. You are only valued or worth anything only if you meet the expectations and standards of the economy that the government controls.

If you do not meet the expectations and standards of the economy one is deemed worthless and of low value where instead they become a lowly servant for the rest of their lives wondering how others come to own more of their lives then themselves.

Why should I care if this "evil" government values me?

Quote :


More like coerced. Oh I get that you choose to follow the law in that you like everybody else has been coerced long enough that it is easier to flow downstream by pretending to choose so than in contrast to fight against a raging current.

Quote :
There are some flaws, but unless I am taking an active part in trying to correct them I cannot complain.

Correct what exactly? There is nothing to correct. There is no directional progress or improvement in this world beyond delusional idealism and naivety.

Correct the areas that differ from my ideal world view. I did not mention progress or improvement and do not mean to imply except relative to my own schemes.

I do not have the motivation to finish my reply, so maybe later.
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