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 When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?

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The Fool
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PostSubject: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:07 pm

When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?

Analogy:

Are hospitals in existence for business or altruism?

Why don't hospitals solely exist for altruistic motives?
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:47 pm

Whenever monetary profit is involved, altruism is impossible by definition.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:28 pm

Unreasonable wrote:
Whenever monetary profit is involved, altruism is impossible by definition.

Nonsense, nothing in the meaning of altruism excludes monetary profit. Monetary profit only means that it would be possible to do without concern for others, but concern for others is the only thing suggested by the word altruism. In no way does it suggest a complete sacrifice of self.

If anything it necessitates some kind of interest in yourself because if you completely disregard self interest as something which should be axiomatically preserved, then acting in the self interest of others through altruism would be to act as an accessory to selfishness. Altruism necessitates the assumption that selfish pursuits are a good.

Hospitals do not exist for solely altruistic motives because that would exclude the possibility of the creation of the distribution methods necessary for their services to exist.

If the assumption was that no one benefited, then it would not be worth doing. The objection would be that it was without benefit, and so the question answers itself, of course not. It requires the belief that benefit is a good for it to be worth pursuing.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:59 am

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Lucretia Says: Nonsense, nothing in the meaning of altruism excludes monetary profit.

Altruism by definition means a selfless act. If altruism is not selfless it is not altruism at all but instead becomes selfishness guided by ulterior motives.


Quote :
Monetary profit only means that it would be possible to do without concern for others, but concern for others is the only thing suggested by the word altruism. In no way does it suggest a complete sacrifice of self.

The arguement here is that concern for others within the human species comes only about through selfishness or some sort of benefit and reward to the one who is helping.

The goal of this thread that I have in mind is that all human activities are guided by self interests or selfishness and that nothing at all is ever selfless. ( All human social activities have ulterior motives revealed or not revealed.)

That all individuals within our species are ego maniacs to one degree or another and that cooperation comes only about when all the individuals within a party gain somthing for themselves through the mutual transaction.




Altruism

Quote :
Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others.

Quote :
Altruism can be distinguished from feelings of loyalty and duty. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while duty focuses on a moral obligation towards a specific individual (for example, God, a king), a specific organization (for example, a government), or an abstract concept (for example, patriotism etc). Some individuals may feel both altruism and duty, while others may not. Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition and need.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:58 pm

The etymology of the word altruism itself means only 'other' or 'someone else'. The idea of selflessness is a connotation the dictionary tacks on from a flawed moral assumption. Given that as its definition then the word in its entirety is simply useless, because a pursuit of goods can not exist without a knowledge of why they are goods, and so selflessness does not exist because it would contradict any rational form of epistemology.

So I agree with you entirely. The word Altruism is too loaded to be useful. There is no perceptible benefit of being selfless, it's not an end worth pursuing.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:04 pm

Then perhaps only Stoics can be altruistic, and even then, it could be a long shot. -- or impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:54 am

Lucretia wrote:
The etymology of the word altruism itself means only 'other' or 'someone else'. The idea of selflessness is a connotation the dictionary tacks on from a flawed moral assumption. Given that as its definition then the word in its entirety is simply useless, because a pursuit of goods can not exist without a knowledge of why they are goods, and so selflessness does not exist because it would contradict any rational form of epistemology.

So I agree with you entirely. The word Altruism is too loaded to be useful. There is no perceptible benefit of being selfless, it's not an end worth pursuing.

Do you agree with me that all social interactions are purely from self interests, selfishness, and mental egoism?

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Unreasonable says:

Then perhaps only Stoics can be altruistic, and even then, it could be a long shot. -- or impossible.

I'm going to go with impossible.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 2:55 pm

Fool,

What is the benefit of merely appearing altruistic, which is not to say that you actually are...
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:16 am

Unreasonable wrote:
Fool,

What is the benefit of merely appearing altruistic, which is not to say that you actually are...

The benefit of pretending is trickery.

( Trick your opponents into believing you are a savior or messiah all the while you control them through their desires.)

( It has worked for many messiahs and visionaries in history.)
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:21 am

Yes, I am somewhat stuck on altruism from that standpoint.

It seems impossible to become truly altruistic unless you completely remove yourself from Society as an Individual.


This is what Stoicism is all about...
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:40 am

Unreasonable wrote:
Yes, I am somewhat stuck on altruism from that standpoint.

It seems impossible to become truly altruistic unless you completely remove yourself from Society as an Individual.


This is what Stoicism is all about...

Even when one is removed from society completely amongst themselves they are usually stuck in their own selfish vanity of self righteousness ( Or delusion). So altruism doesn't exist there either.

Haven't you ever read Nietzsche's mockery of the stoics? Read beyond good and evil for example.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:44 am

I would rather you just sum it up and tell me, lol! Laughing

I can see where you're going with that though. -- I know.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:00 pm

The Fool wrote:
Lucretia wrote:
The etymology of the word altruism itself means only 'other' or 'someone else'. The idea of selflessness is a connotation the dictionary tacks on from a flawed moral assumption. Given that as its definition then the word in its entirety is simply useless, because a pursuit of goods can not exist without a knowledge of why they are goods, and so selflessness does not exist because it would contradict any rational form of epistemology.

So I agree with you entirely. The word Altruism is too loaded to be useful. There is no perceptible benefit of being selfless, it's not an end worth pursuing.

Do you agree with me that all social interactions are purely from self interests, selfishness, and mental egoism?

Yes, but I don't consider those bad things at all. In fact I find it quite beautiful at times.
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PostSubject: Re: When is altruism ever free or without motivations of someone benefitting from the act?   Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:14 am

Lucretia wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Lucretia wrote:
The etymology of the word altruism itself means only 'other' or 'someone else'. The idea of selflessness is a connotation the dictionary tacks on from a flawed moral assumption. Given that as its definition then the word in its entirety is simply useless, because a pursuit of goods can not exist without a knowledge of why they are goods, and so selflessness does not exist because it would contradict any rational form of epistemology.

So I agree with you entirely. The word Altruism is too loaded to be useful. There is no perceptible benefit of being selfless, it's not an end worth pursuing.

Do you agree with me that all social interactions are purely from self interests, selfishness, and mental egoism?

Yes, but I don't consider those bad things at all. In fact I find it quite beautiful at times.

I don't either but if one can accept that selfishness and egoism is the main underlying theme of social interaction in humans it makes understanding violent and destructive tendencies within people all the more understandable leaving a void unto the point of making morality or ethics as being entirely irrelevant.
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