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 Is all politics bullshit?

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The Fool
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PostSubject: Is all politics bullshit?   Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:59 pm

What is politics effective for and why do we have it? What is the goal and intent of politics?
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Unreasonable
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:01 pm

Fool,

I am halfway through an extremely in-depth analysis of Plato's Republic. So, I will get back to you regarding these answers in due time.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:58 pm

Politics today is way for people to act like they're smart and argue over inconsequential bullshit while their government ignores them.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:54 pm

Nicholas wrote:
What is politics effective for and why do we have it? What is the goal and intent of politics?
Four answers...

1. "War is a continuation of politics by other means."

-Carl von Clausewitz, 1832
On War


2. This is reversed in Michel Foucault.

3. 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.' The metropole knows this well; the function of politics in Frantz Fanon is to keep the native population talking, because 'Freedom grows from the barrel of a gun.' (That line is often attributed to Mao Zedong, though he in fact wrote "Political power," 枪杆子里面出政权。 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon the same I think, not "freedom.")

4. From Marguerite Duras's The Lover, 1984,

"...lack of judgement ... superstition ... believing in a political solution to the personal problem."
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:56 am

Advocatus Diaboli wrote:
Politics today is way for people to act like they're smart and argue over inconsequential bullshit while their government ignores them.

I can accept that definition.



Quote :
Alexi wrote:

Four answers...

1. "War is a continuation of politics by other means."

-Carl von Clausewitz, 1832
On War

2. This is reversed in Michel Foucault.

3. 'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.' The metropole knows this well; the function of politics in Frantz Fanon is to keep the native population talking, because 'Freedom grows from the barrel of a gun.' (That line is often attributed to Mao Zedong, though he in fact wrote "Political power," 枪杆子里面出政权。 Pierre-Joseph Proudhon the same I think, not "freedom.")

4. From Marguerite Duras's The Lover, 1984,

"...lack of judgement ... superstition ... believing in a political solution to the personal problem."
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:34 pm

The Fool wrote:
What is politics effective for and why do we have it? What is the goal and intent of politics?

Politics are part of the processes established by our government so as to establish a form of governance least likely to fall to tyranny. The goal of having a reasonable government is to sustain the rule of order in society, the presumption being that human nature is not a sufficient condition to create complex distribution methods for many sorts of products and services. We accord with this model because it has the tendency to be inherently pleasing to people, or because we are habituated into obeying them, or a combination of both, that meaning that it is possible we are inculcated with our preferences by this particular system of order, which works well enough to be satisfying.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:26 am

Lucretia wrote:
Politics are part of the processes established by our government so as to establish a form of governance least likely to fall to tyranny. The goal of having a reasonable government is to sustain the rule of order in society, the presumption being that human nature is not a sufficient condition to create complex distribution methods for many sorts of products and services. We accord with this model because it has the tendency to be inherently pleasing to people, or because we are habituated into obeying them, or a combination of both, that meaning that it is possible we are inculcated with our preferences by this particular system of order, which works well enough to be satisfying.
Politics are part of the processes established by our government so as to establish a form of governance most likely to fall to tyranny.

The goal of having a reasonable government is to sustain the rule of order in society... yes... but...

We accord with this model because it has the tendency to be inherently exploitative, and violence keeps those in line who are the exploited and manage to see through the talk. (Or the very rare ones who benefits from the system but can not bear to play exploiter.)


Last edited by Taras on Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:44 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:48 pm

When's the last time you've been exploited? I live my life in accordance with my preferences as freely as I'd like to. No aspect of my quality of life has been adversely affected by the presence of government. What goal is there for a society other than to satisfy its citizens?
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 4:53 am

Lucretia wrote:
When's the last time you've been exploited?
I've not been.

"The bourgeoisie are members of the upper or merchant class, whose status or power comes from employment, education, and wealth."

"Though the petite bourgeoisie do buy the labor power of others, in contrast to the bourgeoisie, they typically work alongside their own employees; and although they generally own their own businesses, they do not own a controlling share of the means of production."

"...the emergence of a socially alienated, theologically literate, antiestablishment lay intelligentsia is one of the more significant phenomena...."

"A settler is a person who has migrated to an area and established permanent residence there, often to colonize the area."

And it upsets me to play these sorts of rôles: the exploiter. But identify with the outsider.

Quote :
I live my life in accordance with my preferences as freely as I'd like to.
I don't doubt that. How does it feel to live off of the exploitation of the natives?



Quote :
No aspect of my quality of life has been adversely affected by the presence of government.
Why would it be? You are part of the master class. *

Quote :
What goal is there for a society other than to satisfy its citizens?
How about satisfying its non-citizens?

*You will have lost quite a few freedoms in fact living in the metropole, however, let's work on one thing at a time; happy in slavery is a little more difficult a lesson than just feeling what your way of life is doing to others; and furthermore, if you do not yet see your own servitude, it will be helpful to recognize it in others first, then after you will be better able to spot it about yourself.


Last edited by Taras on Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:16 am

Well for one thing, the plight of the labour class is not relevant to governance or the political process. The inference you're presently making is irrelevant to your first objection. By what means are these natives being exploited?
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:48 am

Lucretia wrote:
Well for one thing, the plight of the labour class is not relevant to governance or the political process.
Why not?

Are you using "labour class" in an objectifying way? I mean, a group other than yourself. We are all humans.

Quote :
The inference you're presently making is irrelevant to your first objection.
Spell this out, I'm dull and prone to error; what inference, what first objection?

Quote :
By what means are these natives being exploited?
Violence is the first means. But the master doesn't like to use violence, because it would force him to fight the slave (again) and most likely at this point 'he' would lose. The master prefers politics: talk. The best method of all is to keep the slave happy in slavery,

"It is a wonderful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

-Pauline Réage, 1954
Story of O


Or similarly, to have the slave think 'he' is free.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:58 am

Cut and dry it keeps killing each other a selective thing, not total extinction killing. We maybe social critturs but we are predatorial individuals. A sort of duality that requires a line drawn. Political governance draws that line.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:22 am

Looks like Taras is another one who likes not explaining his meaning. You're still not talking about a particular group or how they're exploited and yet you make reference to them thinking their free. It's not possible to be under the false impression that you are free.
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:55 am

Lucretia wrote:
Looks like Taras is another one who likes not explaining his meaning.
This is not intentional.

Quote :
You're still not talking about a particular group or how they're exploited and yet you make reference to them thinking their free.
There are of course no groups, Marxist class terms are for convenience.

Just so we are on the same page here, all this master and slave talk is from Lordship and Bondange.

Okay, to give a brief example: the PC you are typing on is composed of minerals largely from central Africa.

The film Blood Diamond is in many ways a diversion, because diamonds are in fact of very insignificant value by comparison with the magnesium, zinc, lead, tin, titanium, tungsten, cassiterite....

A better film would have been Blood Notebook Computer or Blood Handphone.

The debt slave boys who mine the minerals are sorry enough, but just as sorry is the Second Congo War, aka the African World War, which is very much underway now: BBC.

The content of that article is of course complete lies: the whole conflict is waged by 'us' against the African nationalists who want to get us the hell out of there: Mugabe is one such nationalist and this why he is the demonized, top story no less, on the BBC every day. Mugabe expelled the foreigners (remember Rhodisia): namely the Anglos and their Indian bureaucrat-cast; the propaganda campaign against him is more or less identical in form and motive to that used against the "Burmese junta," "Papa Doc," Idi Amin and so on.

Every key you type, an African boy dies.

Quote :
It's not possible to be under the false impression that you are free.
And why is that?
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:47 am

Lucretia says:

Quote :
Politics are part of the processes established by our government so as to establish a form of governance least likely to fall to tyranny.

And what government in the history of humanity has not been tyrannical?

The way I see it human government is marked by nothing but tyranny.

( Obey or else.)


Quote :
The goal of having a reasonable government is to sustain the rule of order in society, the presumption being that human nature is not a sufficient condition to create complex distribution methods for many sorts of products and services.

What is a reasonable government?

What is necessary order in a society? What does order within a society look like?

Quote :
the presumption being that human nature is not a sufficient condition to create complex distribution methods for many sorts of products and services.

Why do we need complex distribution methods in the first place?

What sort of purpose or finality are human beings trying to reach? Why should we reach them?

Why should anyone be concerned with such complex distribution methods that claim to have a directional purpose?

Quote :
We accord with this model because it has the tendency to be inherently pleasing to people,

Which people? Surely you don't mean to include everybody.


Quote :
or because we are habituated into obeying them,

By threat of violence and blackmail of course.

Quote :
by this particular system of order, which works well enough to be satisfying.

Satisfying for whom?


Last edited by The Fool on Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is all politics bullshit?   Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:50 am

Lucretia wrote:
When's the last time you've been exploited? I live my life in accordance with my preferences as freely as I'd like to. No aspect of my quality of life has been adversely affected by the presence of government. What goal is there for a society other than to satisfy its citizens?

Just because you have lived a life of luxory must mean that everybody else doesn't know what exploitation feels like. Razz

If you have a feel great life full of sunshine that must mean everybody else has had the same opportunities. Razz

What kind of fantasy world do you live in?

Quote :
What goal is there for a society other than to satisfy its citizens?

Oh I don't know...........Let me take a shot in the wind here......... Smile

Control, dominionism, profit, and power.
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