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The Fool
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PostSubject: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:59 am

Challenge: I challenge anyone to show me how eating and keeping livestock isn't immoral.

Subject: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.

Mutual Agreed Guidelines: Whatever that is clever.

Judges:Anyone.



( Misnomer: Please note that this thread is a practical joke or mockery aimed at discrediting morality and ethics as being ridiculously foolish. This thread should only be taken seriously if you accept such foolishness as being fact. Debaters be warned! This thread discerns how murder of other species is no different from the type that goes on within our own except how one is more easily excused or ignored in contrast.)

( Bring on the anthrocentric inter- specie prejudice!)




It's murder to kill other beings out of self interest, pleasure, and survival even if they are of another species.

It's murder even if their flesh tastes great on a kaiser bun with ketchup, mayonnaise, mustard, and other condiments.





It's murder even if their flesh tastes great within a gravy or the occasional barbeque sauce and soup.





How's that delicious veal? Do you like eating young calves?








It's murder even if their flesh tastes delicious with jalepeno's, lettuce, onions, and tomatoes.





Nevermind that they taste great broiled, baked, filleted, grilled or deep fried since it's still murder.



As for you vegetarians your not out of the loop either for plants are living organisms too. Sure they may not move much or hold any special significance of consciousness but they are technically still alive.




Is it not morally incomprehensible to kill another being? Is it not wrong?

Is it not unethical? Is not all life sacred where by destroying one is an abomination?

Isn't it evil to take another's life? Is it not immoral to devour and consume another being for our own survival?





Now you may say that these other species are different from that of humans where some through specie prejudice will say they are inferior under human domination over the world there by being not apart of the moral expirience human beings set amongst themselves but wouldn't that just be a hypocritical excuse humans use in order to make themselves feel better about their activities?

It appears humans set up morals and ethics only when it best suits them in benefit to themselves alone.

By the way it's still murder even if you didn't murder the animal on your dinner plate yourself as it was you who supplied money to the grocerer in buying the dead meat of the animal victim which supplied motivation for the actual killer who enjoys a profitable existence by your buck.



Let's talk about genocide that stems from the intestinal pallete.















Did you know that nearly a million cows, chickens, and pigs are killed everyday in order to fulfill the hunger of humans in the United States alone? ( Makes you wonder how many are killed everyday around the world.)














The way these animals are confined, and then slaughtered can only be described as genocide.

Now you may say they are killed quickly with the least amount of pain but isn't it still murder even with all the fancy euphuisms of calling it humane?

Now let's talk about the indignation,molestation, and rape of other animal species that is equally wrong or immoral.

Let's take sheep for instance what gives us the right to herd them in confined spaces everyday where we steal their wool in order to make fine sweaters?




What gives us the right to saddle up a horse and ride it?




What gives us the right to breed horses and steal the semen of stallions?






What gives us the right to seel the offspring of another animal?

What gives us the right to molest the utters of cows so that we may enjoy milk and butter?








Now that we have acknowledged the immorality of eating and keeping livestock is it not better that we kill ourselves so that we may not bring pain and suffering on other creatures?

Is it not moral that we kill ourselves to save suffering and pain from not happening to other creatures that we ourselves require to survive on? Laughing Razz Twisted Evil Razz


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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:35 am

I don't eat meat. Not because I feel sensitive toward animals but because they're fed poisons and bad parts of other animals etc- animals that aren't naturally carnivorous. This is what's lead to mad cow disease and how many other mutations we're not even aware of.

Meats are no longer safe to consume.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:37 am

SilentSoliloquy wrote:
I don't eat meat. Not because I feel sensitive toward animals but because they're fed poisons and bad parts of other animals etc- animals that aren't naturally carnivorous. This is what's lead to mad cow disease and how many other mutations we're not even aware of.

Meats are no longer safe to consume.

You still eat vegetables and fruits. Plant killer! How Immoral! Razz Razz

They're living and breathing organisms don't you know.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:52 pm

I am very prejudiced about this one!

However, I believe that most people (that fit your accusation of being immoral) would claim that murder is a classification that can only be asserted against other Humans. Regardless, that is not the argument that I am going to rest my case on.

The veal is delicious! I do not like to eat young calves though ... I love it!

Let us call it murder! I will still eat, of course!
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:31 pm

The Fool wrote:
Now that we have acknowledged the immorality of eating and keeping livestock is it not better that we kill ourselves so that we may not bring pain and suffering on other creatures?

Is it not moral that we kill ourselves to save suffering and pain from not happening to other creatures that we ourselves require to survive on? Laughing Razz Twisted Evil Razz
Generally this is what happens. Good people kill themselves.

Survival is a myth.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:50 am

deepthought wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Now that we have acknowledged the immorality of eating and keeping livestock is it not better that we kill ourselves so that we may not bring pain and suffering on other creatures?

Is it not moral that we kill ourselves to save suffering and pain from not happening to other creatures that we ourselves require to survive on? Laughing Razz Twisted Evil Razz
Generally this is what happens. Good people kill themselves.
First of all, The Fool, beautiful OP, delightful ambiguity too. Have you seen Earthlings (2003)? I'd love to jump in on this but have not time until mid-January as am busy entertaining my family over the holidays. This issue is of very special importance to philosophers; in Ovid's Metamorphoses (Bk: XV, 60-478) "the philosopher" is a vegetarian (Pythagoras),

"What shook the earth, what laws controlled the stars as they were moved—and every hidden thing he was the first man to forbid the use of any animal's flesh as human food, he was the first to speak with learned lips...

Oh, ponder a moment such a monstrous crime—vitals in vitals gorged, one greedy body fattening with plunder of another's flesh, a living being fed on another's life! ...."


This is not the most edifying translation, but the whole text is here, http://www.theoi.com/Text/OvidMetamorphoses15.html .

deepthought, the line you quote seems sound. The important question to me is, can I live as a vegetarian? (The Fool, killing fruit just is not the same.) If not, then this suicide has to be though out very seriously.

SilentSoliloquy are you really a vegetarian? or vegan? Meat is murder, but milk is torture, at least as it is produced en masse for the metropoles.

If I can live as a vegetarian/vegan, then there is no question -- as I live now, I am a monster.

What about the tigers? Exterminate all carnivores? Feed them tofu?

Unreasonable wrote:
What might I do, if I want to? Might I not do anything I feel like doing? I might. I shall. I will.
Unreasonable! haven't you a heart? When is the last time you cried? or thought of you dear old mother?
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:48 am

I'd like to be a vegan but alas it's too difficult in the modern world. Once I can afford it, I may. Mind you, this isn't about morality, but my own health and safety.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:54 pm

deepthought wrote:
The Fool wrote:
Now that we have acknowledged the immorality of eating and keeping livestock is it not better that we kill ourselves so that we may not bring pain and suffering on other creatures?

Is it not moral that we kill ourselves to save suffering and pain from not happening to other creatures that we ourselves require to survive on? Laughing Razz Twisted Evil Razz
Generally this is what happens. Good people kill themselves.

Survival is a myth.

Huh?
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:57 pm

Alexi wrote:
Unreasonable! haven't you a heart?
Sometimes I wonder about this myself Alexi...


Alexi wrote:
When is the last time you cried?
I cried the last time my heart got broken.


Alexi wrote:
or thought of you dear old mother?
I thought of her within the last 5 minutes, because she just walked right by me.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 2:07 pm

Quote :
I am very prejudiced about this one!

How immorally anthrocentric of you! Razz


Quote :
However, I believe that most people (that fit your accusation of being immoral) would claim that murder is a classification that can only be asserted against other Humans. Regardless, that is not the argument that I am going to rest my case on.

Isn't that also immoral? By not extending equality of law beyond men over all animals isn't that a anthrocentric prejudice in that by not including all animals under morality defines humans as being superior over all other life forms creating a form of human dominionism in which people can do whatever they want with other animal species whom they view to be inferior.

I seem to notice some perception of inequality into your insights with regards to other species.

How immoral! Inequality of other species is immoral!

Quote :
The veal is delicious! I do not like to eat young calves though ... I love it!

Let us call it murder! I will still eat, of course!

A crime against life! An abomination! Razz


Quote :
Is this not so convenient for us!? I see that it is!

How hypocritical! Razz


Quote :
Ah, dear Fool, what gives us the right to do anything, except Might!?

Isn't hypocritical to say that murder against a man is immoral and a crime when at the same time we say murdering animals is permissible?

If murdering other species is permissible isn't it permissible then to murder those within our own species?

Quote :
What is Morality, except the control of the masses by the few?

Smile


Quote :
*mmghfm* *mgfh* *mmmgh*

Pass the steak sauce!

*mmgghf* *mghf* *mghf*

Delicious!

Smile


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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:35 pm

I also think it is immoral to kill plants or any living organism.

Everyone that agrees with me, do me a favor and starve yourselves to death, on principle.

I also think it is morally reprehensible that your immune systems regularly conduct what amounts to bacterial genocide.

Get sick and die.
I'll light a candle for you, using wax gathered using humane methods from pig's assholes.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:32 am

Unreasonable wrote:
Alexi wrote:
Unreasonable! haven't you a heart?
Sometimes I wonder about this myself Alexi...
This is where we need to start. Tender feelings and aggressive feelings oscillate in a cycle; or more exactly, depending on the person, s/he uses one or the other feeling to repress the other. For instance, woman, as you sometimes describe her, uses guilt and soft feelings to keep her aggression covered, even from herself; man, as you sometimes describe him, uses aggressive feelings to keep his tender feelings hidden, even from himself. Feelings are very painful; very. If you start to let your aggression down, the soft feelings come welling up fast, and they are absurd and dreadful. The more aggressive a person is, often, the more pressurized their merciful feelings are, and the more bottled up they are; it would be a fair guess that you have quite a lot of tender and merciful feelings repressed under your aggression. I can see you thinking now: "Mercy is for the weak!"

"So let the sun shine in
Face it with a grin
Smilers never lose
And Frowners never win
So let the sun shine in
Face it with a grin
Open up your heart and let the sun shine in!"


Do you have a Kalashnikov or a hunting rifle or something? Ever kill? I don't mean hunting, I mean at arms length? If not, try it, look it in the eyes, and come up next to it when it goes down spasming. This will either make you into a ruthless cold bastard -- or break you down in mercy and tears.

Unreasonable wrote:
Alexi wrote:
When is the last time you cried?
I cried the last time my heart got broken.
Care to elaborate? This is very not unrelated.

Unreasonable wrote:
Alexi wrote:
or thought of you dear old mother?
I thought of her within the last 5 minutes, because she just walked right by me.
I figured this.


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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:51 am

Misogyny is palatable here.

The facial revealed.

There is no reason here, no understanding...only brute vengeance and emotive reaction.

When one is deprived of acceptance, early on, one lashes out in hatred, later on.

A hated not of exclusion but of destruction.
One does not seek to isolate, discriminate, but to obliterate, degrade, humiliate.

I see it clearly, now.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:50 am

Satyr wrote:
Misogyny is palatable here.

The facial revealed.

There is no reason here, no understanding...only brute vengeance and emotive reaction.

When one is deprived of acceptance, early on, one lashes out in hatred, later on.

A hated not of exclusion but of destruction.
One does not seek to isolate, discriminate, but to obliterate, degrade, humiliate.

I see it clearly, now.
A taste for flesh is hard to give up. There is never any reason to give it up.

Tender feelings, for many, are far more difficult to bear than aggressive ones; it takes a stronger man to have mercy than to lash out.

We ride animals, buy animals, and eat animals without mercy. Eat only who you love; hate not from love is a cyclops; a half-truth. It is very tempting to say that no one who is not a vegan is entitled to a moral view; this follows, but no one knows who hasn't been there, no one can give up flesh before he feels it is wrong, I can reason with him all day, but it is superficial until he feels why. Feelings, naturally, are not universifiable, I may have felt mercy for a pig, but I can not extrapolate that to eating cows until I feel about cows.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:29 am

Satyr wrote:
I also think it is immoral to kill plants or any living organism.

Everyone that agrees with me, do me a favor and starve yourselves to death, on principle.

I also think it is morally reprehensible that your immune systems regularly conduct what amounts to bacterial genocide.

Get sick and die.
I'll light a candle for you, using wax gathered using humane methods from pig's assholes.


Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:31 am

Alexi wrote:
Satyr wrote:
Misogyny is palatable here.

The facial revealed.

There is no reason here, no understanding...only brute vengeance and emotive reaction.

When one is deprived of acceptance, early on, one lashes out in hatred, later on.

A hated not of exclusion but of destruction.
One does not seek to isolate, discriminate, but to obliterate, degrade, humiliate.

I see it clearly, now.
A taste for flesh is hard to give up. There is never any reason to give it up.

Tender feelings, for many, are far more difficult to bear than aggressive ones; it takes a stronger man to have mercy than to lash out.

We ride animals, buy animals, and eat animals without mercy. Eat only who you love; hate not from love is a cyclops; a half-truth. It is very tempting to say that no one who is not a vegan is entitled to a moral view; this follows, but no one knows who hasn't been there, no one can give up flesh before he feels it is wrong, I can reason with him all day, but it is superficial until he feels why. Feelings, naturally, are not universifiable, I may have felt mercy for a pig, but I can not extrapolate that to eating cows until I feel about cows.


I just think it is interesting that we slaughter, imprison, feed on, and confine other species without mercy within a sort of impunity but when it comes to our own species were supposed to be moral or ethical in being socially pacified.

Murdering or using violence within your own species is considered terrible.

Murdering or using violence within all other animal species outside our own is permissible.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:28 pm

The Fool wrote:
Quote :
I am very prejudiced about this one!

How immorally anthrocentric of you! Razz
Now now Fool, you are presupposing that Anthrocentricity is immoral, which may not be so, unless I am mistaken...?

After all, "God created us in His image." How selfish was that???



The Fool wrote:
Quote :
However, I believe that most people (that fit your accusation of being immoral) would claim that murder is a classification that can only be asserted against other Humans. Regardless, that is not the argument that I am going to rest my case on.

Isn't that also immoral? By not extending equality of law beyond men over all animals isn't that a anthrocentric prejudice in that by not including all animals under morality defines humans as being superior over all other life forms creating a form of human dominionism in which people can do whatever they want with other animal species whom they view to be inferior.

I seem to notice some perception of inequality into your insights with regards to other species.

How immoral! Inequality of other species is immoral!
I admit that I have some sort of superiority-complex. I value myself over all others, vainly-so. I feed myself before I feed another. I make sure that I am paid before another. Why is this? Why must I be so narcissistic and vain? Can it be another way, or, would I merely be faking it if I let another walk in front of me for a social recognition, gain, and honour? Is this social gain then to my advantage, a system of "karma" that works straight into my selfishness?

Here, let me ask you the question then Fool...

Is it more hypocritical to pretend that I am not vain & selfish, or, act vain & selfish and admit that I am so? Is either case moral/immoral???


The Fool wrote:
Quote :
The veal is delicious! I do not like to eat young calves though ... I love it!

Let us call it murder! I will still eat, of course!

A crime against life! An abomination! Razz
Will you not let me breathe Fool? Will you not let me eat!?

Will you let me die cold & hungry O' Gracious Master!?

What will you have me to do with my life God, except take the life from others???


The Fool wrote:
Quote :
Is this not so convenient for us!? I see that it is!

How hypocritical! Razz
Is it hypocritical to stuff my face without a prayer in mind for the sacrifice that was given ... or simply stuff my face and forget about it?



The Fool wrote:
Quote :
Ah, dear Fool, what gives us the right to do anything, except Might!?

Isn't hypocritical to say that murder against a man is immoral and a crime when at the same time we say murdering animals is permissible?

If murdering other species is permissible isn't it permissible then to murder those within our own species?
You can get away with these things if you convince a person that the life of an animal or a plant is "Equal" to the life of a human animal.

I say that it is. But, queerly, I am hungry and will go to eat soon. Somebody stop me!!!


The Fool wrote:
Quote :
What is Morality, except the control of the masses by the few?

Smile
Cool


The Fool wrote:
Quote :
*mmghfm* *mgfh* *mmmgh*

Pass the steak sauce!

*mmgghf* *mghf* *mghf*

Delicious!

Smile
Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:04 pm

Satyr wrote:
A hated not of exclusion but of destruction.
One does not seek to isolate, discriminate, but to obliterate, degrade, humiliate.

I see it clearly, now.
I didn't get what you were meaning until just now: destroy all difference. But before I can bear the otherness of the other, I have to percieve his sameness, namely his will. Indifference is a virtue, non-intervention; live and let live.

Satyr, I think I recall you live in Canada? Maybe this would make sense to you,



Interference
Impeding an opponent who does not have the puck, or impeding any player from the bench.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:43 pm

Asking what gives us the right to use animals for these ends assumes there is any right of theirs that we are contradicting. It also requires a definition of 'right', because the question does not inherently strike me as useful.

In reality, rights exist at the end of the barrel of a gun. A kind word and a gun will get you much further than just a kind word. It happens to work out well because the people with guns have human preferences that are reasonably in accordance with everyone else's, especially if they enforce liberty, and so we develop a habit of following them and create a society which bases itself on the maximization of liberties so that people can live in accordance with their preferences. The reason for this is that it is not useful or beneficial to pursue anything else. Aside from our preference for the pursuit of goods and benefit, there is no abstract system that gives us rights, it is simply what we have enumerated over time as the manner in which we like living.

When an animal is raised to be slaughtered, it doesn't know the difference. It does not have the capacity to rationalise a desire for liberty. Special ethical considerations do exist for humans because we are capable of articulating them and enforcing our preferences. Animals are not intelligent enough to have as diverse a range of preferences as humans do and so it can not be ethical to slaughter them because they have no particular preference for not being slaughtered, as they have no understanding of the concept whatsoever.

And honestly if you raised humans to be slaughtered, they wouldn't rationalise the alternative preference either because they would have no education and it wouldn't be unethical in that case either. People just taste lousy, is all.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Jan 05, 2009 5:00 am

Lucretia wrote:
It happens to work out well because the people with guns have human preferences that are reasonably in accordance with everyone else's, especially if they enforce liberty...
Enforce liberty?

Quote :
When an animal is raised to be slaughtered, it doesn't know the difference. It does not have the capacity to rationalise a desire for liberty.
Reason has nothing to do with it.

Quote :
And honestly if you raised humans to be slaughtered...
We do.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:25 am

As part of the food chain we cannot deny participation in it. Things kill us, eat us, and so we must kill and eat. That is the way of this world. To kill and not eat what you kill is probably immoral because it is such a waste of food in a highly competitive, densley poplulated world. At least the bugs, germs and microbes get to eat, if waste is the case.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:44 am

Quote :
Lucretia says:

Asking what gives us the right to use animals for these ends assumes there is any right of theirs that we are contradicting.

If that is so for animals why isn't it the same for people within our own species?

If one man kills another person what right of the murdered person is being contradicted?



Quote :
It also requires a definition of 'right', because the question does not inherently strike me as useful.

It's useful enough for humans. Just not for other species, right?

Quote :
In reality, rights exist at the end of the barrel of a gun.

Might is right?

Quote :
A kind word and a gun will get you much further than just a kind word. It happens to work out well because the people with guns have human preferences that are reasonably in accordance with everyone else's, especially if they enforce liberty, and so we develop a habit of following them and create a society which bases itself on the maximization of liberties so that people can live in accordance with their preferences.

In reality only a few live entirely within their preferences where most people are lucky to live in accordance with even of few of their preferences as they are forced into obedience to others.

Quote :
When an animal is raised to be slaughtered, it doesn't know the difference. It does not have the capacity to rationalise a desire for liberty.

So we should killed mentally retarded people who don't know the difference of things or have the capacity to rationalise?

Quote :
Special ethical considerations do exist for humans because we are capable of articulating them and enforcing our preferences.

So morality and ethics only exist because they can be enforced?

Quote :
Animals are not intelligent enough to have as diverse a range of preferences as humans do and so it can not be ethical to slaughter them because they have no particular preference for not being slaughtered, as they have no understanding of the concept whatsoever.

And yet we who kill them have the intelligence and rationalization to know that we are murdering them.

Hmm......I still say were guilty in my book.
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:49 am

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Now now Fool, you are presupposing that Anthrocentricity is immoral,

It isn't?





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I admit that I have some sort of superiority-complex. I value myself over all others, vainly-so. I feed myself before I feed another. I make sure that I am paid before another. Why is this? Why must I be so narcissistic and vain? Can it be another way, or, would I merely be faking it if I let another walk in front of me for a social recognition, gain, and honour? Is this social gain then to my advantage, a system of "karma" that works straight into my selfishness?

Here, let me ask you the question then Fool...

Is it more hypocritical to pretend that I am not vain & selfish, or, act vain & selfish and admit that I am so? Is either case moral/immoral???

Smile Nice.

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Will you not let me breathe Fool? Will you not let me eat!?

Will you let me die cold & hungry O' Gracious Master!?

What will you have me to do with my life God, except take the life from others???

Laughing Smile
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Lucretia
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:48 pm

We should kill the mentally retarded, yes.
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Unreasonable
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:29 pm

Lucretia wrote:
We should kill the mentally retarded, yes.
That depends on whether I am mentally-retarded, yes?
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PostSubject: Re: The immorality of eating and keeping livestock.   

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