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system-hater
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:58 am

so....

In regards to the trite conversation about "favorite philosophers" is there anyway, a genuine debate/discussion upon some subject of interest can be initiated?

My attempt failed....unreasonable, would you like to give it a shot?
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:41 pm

system-hater wrote:
My attempt failed....unreasonable, would you like to give it a shot?
If you had the power to do anything you ever wanted or could dream of in this world...then what would you do?

Spare no details.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:32 pm

I would if i had the time, explore this world with my husband , learn about it and help folks along the way.

Dr. Suess is not trite, you learned from him, you learned more than just how to read.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:46 pm

kriswest wrote:
I would if i had the time, explore this world with my husband , learn about it and help folks along the way.
Awww, it must be a shame for you that your husband is so unwilling to step out of his skin and truly-experience the world.

You picked him to mate with Kriswest; deal with it. Laughing


kriswest wrote:
Dr. Suess is not trite, you learned from him, you learned more than just how to read.
Dr. Seuss wrote children books and made a load of money off of them, yet another Sophist. He was not so intelligent.

It is not difficult for anybody to push & penetrate their ideologies onto (or into) children who cannot resist them. Ask Jean.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 1:54 pm

Quote :
Unreasonable wrote:
system-hater wrote:
My attempt failed....unreasonable, would you like to give it a shot?
If you had the power to do anything you ever wanted or could dream of in this world...then what would you do?

Spare no details.


eliminate ALL advanced technology. television, cellular phones, computers, advanced medicinal methodology, video electronics, motorized transportation, mobile gadgets etc.

Why?

For one, i awake every mourning only to be reminded that our children are being raised by cartoon animated charachters such as spongebob squarepants, and our adults are being conditioned into mindless cogs of machinery by empty cooperate working fields.

Funny how we allow the real teachers and geniuses of *ALL* human kind such as Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Locke, Newton, to sit idly on our bookshelves gathering dust, disregarding them due to the fact that our hopeless indolence has cultivated an inertia inside of us, wiping out all recognition of our human meaning and purpose.

Screw it, who cares about figuring out why we're alive, what our purpose in this life is, what makes us human, or why the fuck we're human in the first place...

Oh well...might as well go turn on the senseless, mind-numbing, vapid television and see if ole spongebob squarpants, who doesn't even exist, can teach us something about ethics and the human condition. Why not? He's colorful and does funny cute things, he seems to be the better more preferred philosopher these days.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:00 pm

kriswest wrote:
I would if i had the time, explore this world with my husband , learn about it and help folks along the way.

Ahh yes....no one has the time to make the effort to do anything meaningful these days.

thank you for reminding us how lazy you are Kris.

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Dr. Suess is not trite, you learned from him, you learned more than just how to read.

First of all, i never learned anything from Dr. Seuss, so don't blatently assume such falsities.

Second of all, if you can explain to me how "i do not like green eggs and ham, Sam i am" is not considered to be "trite" writing, than i would love to hear it Kris!
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:11 pm

system-hater wrote:
eliminate ALL advanced technology. television, cellular phones, computers, advanced medicinal methodology, video electronics, motorized transportation, mobile gadgets etc.

Why?

For one, i awake every mourning only to be reminded that our children are being raised by cartoon animated charachters such as spongebob squarepants, and our adults are being conditioned into mindless cogs of machinery by empty cooperate working fields.

Funny how we allow the real teachers and geniuses of *ALL* human kind such as Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, Locke, Newton, to sit idly on our bookshelves gathering dust, disregarding them due to the fact that our hopeless indolence has cultivated an inertia inside of us, wiping out all recognition of our human meaning and purpose.

Screw it, who cares about figuring out why we're alive, what our purpose in this life is, what makes us human, or why the fuck we're human in the first place...

Oh well...might as well go turn on the senseless, mind-numbing, vapid television and see if ole spongebob squarpants, who doesn't even exist, can teach us something about ethics and the human condition. Why not? He's colorful and does funny cute things, he seems to be the better more preferred philosopher these days.
I am curious; that is why.

Do you mean to say that if children were educated in Philosophy that you would keep the technology???

Or do you hate this technology because of the medium (Spongebob Squarepants) that runs through it???

I mean I could cutoff my internet connection, but then that would (probably)-disallow you and I ever meeting.

Would that not disrupt the progression of Philosophy and the answering of great mysteries?
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:26 pm

Unreasonable wrote:

I am curious; that is why.

Do you mean to say that if children were educated in Philosophy that you would keep the technology???

There are basic forms of technology that should be utilized such as the general inclination to build tools for building shelter, or nurturing agriculture.

However, there is a grand difference between "advanced" technology and "basic" technology.

The problem is, this abundance of advanced technology distracts most children from appreciating any educational delegation, whether it be in philosophy or not.

Quote :
Or do you hate this technology because of the medium (Spongebob Squarepants) that runs through it???

Haha...

No, spongebob squarepants, among MANY other contributing factors of an empty life, was just an example.

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I mean I could cutoff my internet connection, but then that would (probably)-disallow you and I ever meeting.

Would that not disrupt the progression of Philosophy and the answering of great mysteries?

If there never *WAS* an electronic communicative world such as the internet in the *first place* you wouldn't have to worry about this. We would be either unknown to each other, or talking to each other in person.

the internet after all, was never needed to converse about and solve philosophical enigmas, even though it can be used as such.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 2:40 pm

Then what is your contention with "advanced" technology? I do not understand the cause for your disdain.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:05 pm

Unreasonable wrote:
Then what is your contention with "advanced" technology? I do not understand the cause for your disdain.

To be quite honest, the cause, would probably have to be Kaczynski's manifesto, which i read about a year ago.

Before i had read it, i normally kept to fiction novels (i.e. Steven King, Dean Koontz) or any other form of banal mainstreamed literature i happened to come across. In fact, before i read it, i had no veritable interest in philosophy at all.

It was referred to me by my brother, who usually refers good books to me so i took him up on his recommendation of reading the manifesto. After i had read it, i had fallen into the most self-introspective and deep consideration and analysis of my life, and society that i had never experienced before. Kaczynski's words were extremely powerful to me, and i took them very seriously, as they were the most meaningful words i had read up to that point in my life. And for the first time ever, i had found something of a purpose, something real and genuine to work for, which was finding out why as human beings we have come to be in such a squalid state of affairs.

First, i focused on such reading material like Anarchism, or any other revolutionary literature. For a short while i was actually was beginning to wonder if i should be an Anarchist. I explored Anarchist coalitions and internet organizations to aid me in my search for like-minded brethren, to no avail. To my disappointment, i was learning that most people cared little if not, not at all, about the deterioration of our lives and culture, and it both enraged and saddened me. In addition, i also learned little by little that Anarchism, though admirable in some of its principles, was very passive and egalitarian. Most of the Anarchist organizations i came across consisted of nothing more than dissatisfied ninnies who held up protest signs, and conducted social meetings with cookies and coffee drinks, to whine and moan about the system. I disavowed them, which is why i am not an Anarchist.

In my pursuit to understand humanity and "advanced" society, i was slowly but surly reading more philosophy. First, Bertrand Russell, than it was Locke, than Voltaire, and since then i have put aside my overall rage against the machine, temporarily so to speak, that i shared with Kaczynski and have just been infused with a feverish need to read more and more philosophy. I no longer watch television, or listen to annoying radio produced music, or play video games or any of the other empty activities i had been clinging to for so long. My goal is to read ALL of the great minds in human history, there is no stopping me now.

So, i have Kaczynski's work to be grateful for as the cause, as you say, for my hatred for such cheap artificial lives that most people bury themselves in, and that I had buried myself in for over 20 years.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 3:35 pm

system-hater wrote:
To be quite honest, the cause, would probably have to be Kaczynski's manifesto, which i read about a year ago.

Before i had read it, i normally kept to fiction novels (i.e. Steven King, Dean Koontz) or any other form of banal mainstreamed literature i happened to come across. In fact, before i read it, i had no veritable interest in philosophy at all.

It was referred to me by my brother, who usually refers good books to me so i took him up on his recommendation of reading the manifesto. After i had read it, i had fallen into the most self-introspective and deep consideration and analysis of my life, and society that i had never experienced before. Kaczynski's words were extremely powerful to me, and i took them very seriously, as they were the most meaningful words i had read up to that point in my life. And for the first time ever, i had found something of a purpose, something real and genuine to work for, which was finding out why as human beings we have come to be in such a squalid state of affairs.

First, i focused on such reading material like Anarchism, or any other revolutionary literature. For a short while i was actually was beginning to wonder if i should be an Anarchist. I explored Anarchist coalitions and internet organizations to aid me in my search for like-minded brethren, to no avail. To my disappointment, i was learning that most people cared little if not, not at all, about the deterioration of our lives and culture, and it both enraged and saddened me. In addition, i also learned little by little that Anarchism, though admirable in some of its principles, was very passive and egalitarian. Most of the Anarchist organizations i came across consisted of nothing more than dissatisfied ninnies who held up protest signs, and conducted social meetings with cookies and coffee drinks, to whine and moan about the system. I disavowed them, which is why i am not an Anarchist.

In my pursuit to understand humanity and "advanced" society, i was slowly but surly reading more philosophy. First, Bertrand Russell, than it was Locke, than Voltaire, and since then i have put aside my overall rage against the machine, temporarily so to speak, that i shared with Kaczynski and have just been infused with a feverish need to read more and more philosophy. I no longer watch television, or listen to annoying radio produced music, or play video games or any of the other empty activities i had been clinging to for so long. My goal is to read ALL of the great minds in human history, there is no stopping me now.

So, i have Kaczynski's work to be grateful for as the cause, as you say, for my hatred for such cheap artificial lives that most people bury themselves in, and that I had buried myself in for over 20 years.
I just do not see how "advanced technology" is a cause or The Cause for these problems you might see in Society.

First you should understand that Human Societies and Civilizations have always experienced times of high & low culture.

Amerika is falling into low culture for a myriad of different reasons. I do not believe "advanced technology" is the epitome of the causation.

Connection, or Disconnection, are matters of Philosophical predisposition...Individual versus Society. And these things will always occur no matter what time/place you may live in the world. 1000 years from now, the Uberman Male will *STILL* be rebellious and non-conforming. He will revolt. He will break away from Society. He will renounce all the lies of pretense and civility that occur today, and tomorrow. This is a rarity of existence, an anomalous existence, not the norm at all. This is a mere symptom of human being...and "Freedom" from the system, against the system of institutionalization.

Lately I have been thinking about the movie "The Matrix" more and more. You should watch it if you have not seen it before. It is very good and entertaining, on two accounts. The metaphors it uses are pilfered from several philosophical backgrounds. You can think of Neo, Morpheous, and the revolutionaries as Philosophers. All the people inside The Matrix are thoughtless, unthinking robots. So too does this apply to the Human Animal. People inside the system cannot think for themselves. They repress their consciousness, and a large part of this repression is the result of their "failed" genetics. What they "fail" to do is free their minds from enslavement. But such is the will of the system-itself, The Matrix, or in other words, The Institution.

The State Institution, as Western Culture, dominates this world. There is no doubt about that. We live inside a "Supraorganism" that we must resist, or, become enslaved to. No matter how great its 'technology' may be, I do not see how a mere tool of the institutionalized Megacity-State is an actual cause for its motivations. Because its motivations are inspired by the collective mindset of the brainless, and the unthinking. The Masses are compelled by simple desires: for sex, drugs, and mental inebriation (of which Religion is the highest opiate). If the Institution denies its people these things then revolts, rebellions, and Anarchy all shall transpire.

Those that are the mindless are slaves to the system, of which is the Master. And Philosophers fight for control over this great beast: The System.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Unreasonable wrote:

I just do not see how "advanced technology" is a cause or The Cause for these problems you might see in Society.

It is one of the most prominent causes, one of the most main and exacerbating, but not the one and only. Other variables such as, corporations, advertising, cheap entertainment, the exploitation of sex and relationships, education, corrupt political regimes etc, contribute as well.

Quote :
First you should understand that Human Societies and Civilizations have always experienced times of high & low culture.

Amerika is falling into low culture for a myriad of different reasons. I do not believe "advanced technology" is the epitome of the causation.

Again, it is not the one and only cause, but the one that produces the most damage on the human condition.

I'm not sure whether you've read Kaczynski's manifesto or not, however he constructs a theory about the pursuit of goals that give meaning to human life, of which he called the "Power Process". The Power Process, he explains, illustrates the human inclination to work towards some end that grants them fulfillment. There are three factors-The goal, the effort to attain the goal, and than the attainment of the goal itself. building a tool, sculpting a statue, writing a novel, building a home from ones own hands etc. These type of pursuits he claimed were "real" pursuits due to the reason we achieve them on our own, attributing our own creativity to what they are, this is crucial, states Kaczynski, to developing a prime source of meaning in our lives.

However, what the advanced technological society does, is restrict our ability to put forth our own effort to create. The system produces most of our options for us, excluding any "real" goals to be attained, the vast majority of our pursuits are manufactured and instructed against our will. This results in an empty, unfulfilled life, so how does the system compensate for this?

By giving us "pleasurable" activities, (that are still not our own of course) to lose ourselves in, such as bars, clubs, restaurants, fitness organizations, recreational organizations, video games, television, or any other mind-numbing hobby. I have no doubt why some people become depressed or why the suicide rate of teenagers remains high, due to this captivity upon our nature.

Quote :
Connection, or Disconnection, are matters of Philosophical predisposition...Individual versus Society. And these things will always occur no matter what time/place you may live in the world. 1000 years from now, the Uberman Male will *STILL* be rebellious and non-conforming. He will revolt. He will break away from Society. He will renounce all the lies of pretense and civility that occur today, and tomorrow. This is a rarity of existence, an anomalous existence, not the norm at all. This is a mere symptom of human being...and "Freedom" from the system, against the system of institutionalization.

i agree.

The human animal is stubborn. Unlikely to abstain from his natural propensities of rebellion, regardless of the state society happens to be in. Although, it is not mans nature i abhor, man is what he is, it is the external creations of his nature. the material world, as Plato venerates, is illusory and deceitful, blinding us from what matters, which is our reason and our intellect. From what i can tell thus far, and having been a victim of this synthetic deceit myself, the material world has not only blinded us from what matters, but from our own *selves*.

Quote :
Lately I have been thinking about the movie "The Matrix" more and more. You should watch it if you have not seen it before. It is very good and entertaining, on two accounts. The metaphors it uses are pilfered from several philosophical backgrounds. You can think of Neo, Morpheous, and the revolutionaries as Philosophers. All the people inside The Matrix are thoughtless, unthinking robots. So too does this apply to the Human Animal. People inside the system cannot think for themselves. They repress their consciousness, and a large part of this repression is the result of their "failed" genetics. What they "fail" to do is free their minds from enslavement. But such is the will of the system-itself, The Matrix, or in other words, The Institution.

I have seen The Matrix, and i realize that much of its sensational glorification WAS in fact due to the underlined philosophical connotations the producers attributed to it. And it IS interesting in some respects, such as the world of fantasy and the world of reality.

People, prefer to live comfortably. This is the devastation upon the psyche. The mind strives for homeostasis and iddlylic subsistence. The easy way, is to succumb to this state, the hard way, of course, is to fight against it through the power of intellect and reason. intellect, being the only arsenal human beings are equipped with to counter the attacks of mindless conformity the system imposes. For years i chose to succomb, however, now i consider myself free, in a state of "intellect" that is, rather than in a state of physicality.

If you enjoy The Matrix, i suggest purchasing a copy of its philosophy that is sold in any bookstore. There are also books on the philosophy of "The Simpsons". LOL. can you imagine the ingeniousness of the system to propound such idiocy by integrating popular cartoon shows into philosophy? My blood boils just thinking about this desecration. Evil or Very Mad


Quote :
Because its motivations are inspired by the collective mindset of the brainless, and the unthinking. The Masses are compelled by simple desires: for sex, drugs, and mental inebriation (of which Religion is the highest opiate). If the Institution denies its people these things then revolts, rebellions, and Anarchy all shall transpire.

They are compelled by these desires through the fabrication and senselessness of advanced technology and society.

Technology in its present form, allows us to live much more easily and to further expedite our wants whether it be the desire to be educated, entertained, meet people, (i.e. internet), acquire information, (i.e. internet), live longer, (i.e. advanced medicine, which had been disrupting natural selection since the early 1900s and contributing to overpopulation), relive our stress through the consumption of alchohol. This is how an attitude of pacifism develops.

And i doubt that the State would ever totally deny the masses their trivial pleasures, as Anarchy I'm sure would be unbeneficial to the system. The changes that occur are through the political schema, which advocates and exhorts people to live and comply in different manners, which sometimes result in "objections" (which are menial in themselves) against these sociological employments, to which the State silences the dissenters through psychological manipulation of "assurance" and "promise". This is why every President of the the US must emphatically advocate "Change". That is what these ignorant naive masses want to hear, they want to be placated and appeased through this rhetoric of "change", and the State always wins.

Quote :
Those that are the mindless are slaves to the system, of which is the Master. And Philosophers fight for control over this great beast: The System.


I choose to be a philosopher. However, it is difficult for me to plunge my sword of reason into the Dragon's throat when i must do it alone, without allies.


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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 5:34 pm

system-hater wrote:
This results in an empty, unfulfilled life, so how does the system compensate for this?

By giving us "pleasurable" activities, (that are still not our own of course) to lose ourselves in, such as bars, clubs, restaurants, fitness organizations, recreational organizations, video games, television, mind-numbing hobbies etc. I have no doubt why some people become depressed or why the suicide rate of teenagers remains high, due to this captivity upon our nature.
Whose responsibility is it for an Individual Man to sate his own pleasures...except himself, or The State?


system-hater wrote:
The human animal is stubborn. Unlikely to abstain from his natural propensities of rebellion, regardless of the state society happens to be in. Although, it is not mans nature i abhor, man is what he is, it is the external creations of his nature. the material world, as Plato venerates, is illusory and deceitful, blinding us from what matters, which is our reason and our intellect. From what i can tell thus far, and having been a victim of this synthetic deceit myself, the material world has not only blinded us from what matters, but from our own *selves*.
What you abhor is self-limitation...what you-yourself are prevented from doing to satisfy your own (natural) human compulsions...fuck, pee, drink, sleep.


Quote :
If you enjoy The Matrix, i suggest purchesing a copy of its philosophy that is sold in any bookstore. There are also books on the philosophy of "The Simpsons". LOL. can you imagine the ingeniousness of the system to propound such idiocy by integrating popular cartoon shows into philosophy? My blood boils just thinking about this desecration. Evil or Very Mad
For some "strange" reason, reading those philosophies does not sound appealing to me.

It is ironic to me how some people find Great Power to be a game...when it is not so fun to put your own life on the line in vain.


system-hater wrote:
And i doubt that the State would ever totally deny the masses their trivial pleasures, as Anarchy i'm sure would be unbenificial to the system. The changes that occur are through the political schema, which advocates and exhorts people to live and comply in diffrent manners, which sometimes result in "objections" (which are menial in themselves) against these sociological employments, to which the State silences the dissenters through psychological manipulation of "assurance" and "promise". This is why every President of the the US must emphatically advocate "Change". That is what these ignorant naive masses want to hear, thay want to be placated and appeased through this rhetoric of "change", and the State always wins.
Anarchy will *NEVER* benefit any State or Social Power. The two are exclusively opposed to each other.

So what "change" would you enjoy to see...SH, if you had the power to instigate the change???


system-hater wrote:
Quote :
Those that are the mindless are slaves to the system, of which is the Master. And Philosophers fight for control over this great beast: The System.

I choose to be a philosopher. However, it is difficult for me to plung my sword of reason into the Dragon's throt when i must do it alone, without allies.
Then gather your allies and prepare for war, if that is what you want, dragon slayer.

Or become a dragon.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Thu Jun 18, 2009 6:00 pm

Unreasonable wrote:

Whose responsibility is it for an Individual Man to sate his own pleasures...except himself, or The State?

The State is operated by man, man sates his own pleasures whether it be through what the state sanctions or not. a duality encompasses this code of responsibility that is The State-run by man-and "Man"-who runs himself. No other third source of responsibility.

However, the question is, which is more preferred and more likely to be protected? Man's responsibility over himself, or the states responsibility over Him?



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What you abhor is self-limitation...what you-yourself are prevented from doing to satisfy your own (natural) human compulsions...fuck, pee, drink, sleep.

I do all four of those things, without relying on, or being controlled by the system, to do them. Perhaps all but eating, the system has advantageously taken control of that through grocery stores maintained by advanced agriculture.

I suppose i could take care of my need to eat as well, by hunting, but advanced technology has destroyed most of the animal species, or imprisoned them in zoos and preservation camps, so i believe that would be rather difficult.


Quote :

It is ironic to me how some people find Great Power to be a game...when it is not so fun to put your own life on the line in vain.

The battle for survival has been suppressed.


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Anarchy will *NEVER* benefit any State or Social Power. The two are exclusively opposed to each other.

Correct.

Quote :

So what "change" would you enjoy to see...SH, if you had the power to instigate the change???

The abolishment of all if not most of the technology that interferes with human life.


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Then gather your allies and prepare for war, if that is what you want, dragon slayer.

Or become a dragon.

It is difficult to gather allies when they have been severely conditioned to view the Dragon as a benign entity.

But all i can do is continue to learn and perhaps i can figure out how to convince them otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:48 am

ROFL Lazy how would having time to explore the world and learn be lazy, how would taking that education and assisting others be lazy?
If I had started exporing and truly learning this world when I was born i would still be in Southern South America if that was my starting point. 45 yers is not long enough a life time is not long enough. To learn all I can about earth sociology anthropopology philosophy and bring it to a point where it is useful would take many life times. All the great minds you talk about above have such a tiny perspective on humanity. Each is only a small part of what is. It is merely the beginning of the puzzle. to apply such small perspectives to life with out understanding that they are mere pieces warps your own life. Use them but do not abuse them.

If you had read and paid attention to what you read from the Dr. you would understand there were no idealogies as such but social philosphies for young minds to grasp. No manipulation is in them UR just life lessons.
Green eggs and ham: With out fleshing them out ,the main philosphical point in that one is: Fear by association can be a trap.. The minor ones are trust issues and persistance /stubbornness when dealing with others.

Is that trite? No not hardly, its not even close to idealogy nor manipulation of young heads, it is simply philosophical truths that all humans should learn. If you read them you learned them wether you know it now or not.

All philosphers are out to educate and change minds, a young mind is not any more vunerable to words as such than an older mind desperately reaching out to understand. As you both have admitted to doing.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:16 pm

kriswest wrote:
ROFL Lazy how would having time to explore the world and learn be lazy, how would taking that education and assisting others be lazy?

You're the one who told me you were lazy Kris.

here let me help you understand yourself...

"If i had the time"- Meaning, indirectly- "i have no time". OR "I do not wish to make the time".

You should pay attention to your *OWN* words Kris if you want to make an effective retort.



Quote :
If I had started exporing and truly learning this world when I was born i would still be in Southern South America if that was my starting point. 45 yers is not long enough a life time is not long enough. To learn all I can about earth sociology anthropopology philosophy and bring it to a point where it is useful would take many life times.

Wrong.

You're continuing to justify your own indolence through exaggerated effect. It takes only ONE lifetime, if you wish to know a great deal about the world, unless your intention is to know everything, which is impossible.

Quote :
All the great minds you talk about above have such a tiny perspective on humanity.
Each is only a small part of what is. It is merely the beginning of the puzzle. to apply such small perspectives to life with out understanding that they are mere pieces warps your own life. Use them but do not abuse them.


If you *UNDERSTOOD* anything about such monumental and revolutionary perspectives that you're so apt to belittle as "small" or "tiny", you could possibly (with a little effort) gain a better oversight on who's abusing what here.

Quote :

Green eggs and ham: With out fleshing them out ,the main philosphical point in that one is: Fear by association can be a trap.. The minor ones are trust issues and persistance /stubbornness when dealing with others.

As a writer to the appeal of children, i seriously doubt he had any intention of incorporating philosophical connotations.

Not mention the fact that, these basic trifles you've mentioned can be , and usually are, learned by simple human guidance, not cute picture illustrated books.

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Is that trite? No not hardly, its not even close to idealogy nor manipulation of young heads, it is simply philosophical truths that all humans should learn. If you read them you learned them wether you know it now or not.

Yes it is trite.

What you fail to understand, or simply refuse to understand, is that Dr. Seuss wasn't anymore a philosopher than he was a simpleton appealing to the minds of children. Pretty funny pictures, tantalize and entertain children minds, much in the same manner televised cartoons do. The words are simply there for "progression".

The children don't care about trying to understand them, unless of course an adult comes along and assists them, which would then be the work of the *ADULT* not Dr. Seuss!

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All philosphers are out to educate and change minds,


Philosophers are out to change "truth", if the inadvertent change in other minds happens to occur as a result of ones philosophical associations and arguments, than all the better or worse depending on the philosophy.

For Nietzsche it didn't work out so well, as his ideas became vitiated by Nazism.

Quote :
a young mind is not any more vunerable to words as such than an older mind desperately reaching out to understand.


Incorrect.

Young and old minds are vulnerable to *ANYTHING* with the capability of influence. Words being among one of the most salient.

Quote :
As you both have admitted to doing.


I never admitted anything of such nonsense.

If you continue to falsely slander me Kris i won't respond to your posts.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:05 pm

Ahh but you see you have, not in those words but in this way;

Quote :
In my pursuit to understand humanity and "advanced" society, i was slowly but surly reading more philosophy. First, Bertrand Russell, than it was Locke, than Voltaire, and since then i have put aside my overall rage against the machine, temporarily so to speak, that i shared with Kaczynski and have just been infused with a feverish need to read more and more philosophy. I no longer watch television, or listen to annoying radio produced music, or play video games or any of the other empty activities i had been clinging to for so long. My goal is to read ALL of the great minds in human history, there is no stopping me now.

You are desperately feverishly searching, you said it not I and that makes your mind vunerable.
Just as vunerable as a pliable child mind desperately searching to learn everything in its fresh young path.

Its not slander, it is truth.

All the great published philosophers are not even a 100th of the amount of great minds out there that have been and are existing. For every published human with gathered knowledge there are hundreds that will go by unnoticed. And so those that are published are just the tiniest amount of human knowledge. With such a small perspective of knowledge and relying on that small perspective you do miss much., things get skewed.

Which is why (in answer to the OP)I would wish to have the power to live as many lifetimes as it takes to go through the world piece by piece use what I learn to help others. I already do what i can but, its a pitiful amount. My familial responsibilities must come first. If you consider that lazy then so be it. I find you calling me lazy amusing as hell considering I am up at 4am every morning and finally quit work around 8pm , 24/7 every month of every year. I may get 3 or 4 days off of not working maybe, if I am lucky a week vacation visiting friends in Texas,, if I am lucky. Lazy?ROFLMAO OK sure. God help me if I become energetic, I think I would prefer the sleep of death then Laughing Laughing

I could say you slandered me and get petulant like you did and then proceed to be arrogant enough to threaten to withhold my conversations from you,,, but that is just silly. Why would you even think you not talking to me would bother me in the least anyway? I have asked others why they do that silly sort of threat so I will ask you. why did you do that?
Do you think that I hunger for your words? Or that I *cough* believe you to be vastly superior or was it just a desperate slap down from an angry or upset mind?
Or as most reply they do not actually know why they did it, seems like its more of a knee jerk reaction for most. So whats your poison?

Oh I forgot to adress one other little thing,,, if you are going to pursue philosophy then you need to learn about how the mind works and why. Try learning phsychology . You see those silly pictures of Suess's has a distinct purpose. They cause young minds to associate and remember what they have learned and read. Our senses and their uses impact how we learn , gain knowledge and retain knowledge. So while you read Voltaire go find some modern physcology studies ,, good god not that fraud Sigmund F. that was one twisted shrink. There are some very interesting studies that have been done I am sure you can find them online. Search for colors impact learning or senses used with learning or something along those lines. You may find some very educational reading that will assist you in your ummm, feverish pursuit... LOL sorry couldn't pass that up.. Truce Laughing Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:10 pm

Quote :
[quote="kriswest"]Ahh but you see you have, not in those words but in this way;

Quote :
In my pursuit to understand humanity and "advanced" society, i was slowly but surly reading more philosophy. First, Bertrand Russell, than it was Locke, than Voltaire, and since then i have put aside my overall rage against the machine, temporarily so to speak, that i shared with Kaczynski and have just been infused with a feverish need to read more and more philosophy. I no longer watch television, or listen to annoying radio produced music, or play video games or any of the other empty activities i had been clinging to for so long. My goal is to read ALL of the great minds in human history, there is no stopping me now.

You are desperately feverishly searching, you said it not I and that makes your mind vunerable.
Just as vunerable as a pliable child mind desperately searching to learn everything in its fresh young path.

Its not slander, it is truth.

Kris....you still refuse to pay attention don't you?

I know my mind is vulnerable!!!!!!!!!!!
Every human mind is vulnerable!!!

Hence my words: Young and old minds are vulnerable to *ANYTHING* with the capability of influence. Words being among one of the most salient.

"Influence" being the key word.

Now i *MIGHT* succeed in my ****pursuit**** of reading the work of ALL the great minds in history, I *MIGHT* not. If i do, i still will not attain omniscience, which is why i can only accept it as a pursuit, not a certainty.

Now, allow me for the second time to assist you, in your *PURSUIT* to understand yourself yet again...

you wrote:
a young mind is not any more vunerable to words as such than an older mind desperately reaching out to understand.

Apparently, you have lost touch/track with what you have been saying, if you have been saying anything of coherence at all. Either make a viable effort to understand YOURSELF, or have someone who is more self-aware than you are to write your posts for you.

Quote :
All the great published philosophers are not even a 100th of the amount of great minds out there that have been and are existing. For every published human with gathered knowledge there are hundreds that will go by unnoticed. And so those that are published are just the tiniest amount of human knowledge. With such a small perspective of knowledge and relying on that small perspective you do miss much., things get skewed.

Some go unrecognized, some go commended....so what?

This is the way it has been since the dawn of man's first intellectual creation. You learn what you can from who you can, depending upon what they can offer you.

Quote :
Which is why (in answer to the OP)I would wish to have the power to live as many lifetimes as it takes to go through the world piece by piece use what I learn to help others.

Well Kris, you may not be able to help everyone in the world, but if you make an "effort" you'd be surprised what you can accomplish.


Quote :
I already do what i can but, its a pitiful amount. My familial responsibilities must come first. If you consider that lazy then so be it. I find you calling me lazy amusing as hell considering I am up at 4am every morning and finally quit work around 8pm , 24/7 every month of every year. I may get 3 or 4 days off of not working maybe, if I am lucky a week vacation visiting friends in Texas,, if I am lucky. Lazy?ROFLMAO OK sure. God help me if I become energetic, I think I would prefer the sleep of death then Laughing Laughing


Funny how you find the time, in spite of your hectic life and work schedule to respond to an internet discussion forum, which (as you so vehemently express your care for family priorities) should be incidental to your apparently busy busy life.

Suspect


Quote :
I could say you slandered me and get petulant like you did and then proceed to be arrogant enough to threaten to withhold my conversations from you,,, but that is just silly.

That’s because I never falsely slandered against you.

Quote :
Why would you even think you not talking to me would bother me in the least anyway? I have asked others why they do that silly sort of threat so I will ask you. why did you do that?

To make a point.

I could care less if it bothers you.

Quote :
Do you think that I hunger for your words? Or that I *cough* believe you to be vastly superior or was it just a desperate slap down from an angry or upset mind?
Or as most reply they do not actually know why they did it, seems like its more of a knee jerk reaction for most. So whats your poison?

You’re in an emotional rant.

Quote :
Oh I forgot to adress one other little thing,,, if you are going to pursue philosophy then you need to learn about how the mind works and why.
Try learning phsychology .


Yes….and philosophy is a study that attempts to figure out how the mind works and why. Psychology is simply another “form” of philosophy, focusing primarily in empirical aptitudes based on evidentiary elements, how mind processes and behavior operate. Philosophy is a practical study focusing in either empirical or rational aptitudes, and is also based on evidence.

The difference came to be, (after Freud mind you), that psychology had a tendency to focus on human aspects dealing solely with the technicalities of mind and behavior, whereas the study of philosophy can be applied to both human and natural environment life and existence. Hence, it’s transmutation to psychology as a field apart.

Hmm…..maybe if you’re going to understand how the mind works and why Kris, you should understand philosophy!

Quote :
You see those silly pictures of Suess's has a distinct purpose.

To entertain and distract…yes.

Quote :
They cause young minds to associate and remember what they have learned and read.


Only if an adult teaches them how…

Quote :
Our senses and their uses impact how we learn , gain knowledge and retain knowledge.


Wrong, our intellect does that for us. Our senses are there to provide our intellect with the necessary input.

Quote :
So while you read Voltaire go find some modern physcology studies ,, good god not that fraud Sigmund F. that was one twisted shrink.


Yes what a maniac he was!

Never mind that he laid down the foundation for psychoanalytic application, and revolutionized the field of both psychology AND philosophy. But perhaps you never knew that, where if you did you might have refrained from an ignorant insult.



Quote :
There are some very interesting studies that have been done I am sure you can find them online. Search for colors impact learning or senses used with learning or something along those lines.

Yeah sure Kris…something along those lines….I’ll give it a shot.

Quote :
You may find some very educational reading that will assist you in your ummm, feverish pursuit... LOL sorry couldn't pass that up.. Truce Laughing Laughing

Truce?

Were we fighting?
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:26 pm

system-hater wrote:
The State is operated by man, man sates his own pleasures whether it be through what the state sanctions or not. a duality encompasses this code of responsibility that is The State-run by man-and "Man"-who runs himself. No other third source of responsibility.
But do the men who run The State actually run themselves...or must sacrifices of "civility" be made in order for them to usurp these positions of power???

Would Obama have won the US presidency if he were unmarried, an Atheist, and an Alcoholic???


However, my "real" question is/was, which path is preferred and more likely to be protected? -Man's responsibility over Himself, or the states responsibility over Him?


system-hater wrote:
Quote :
What you abhor is self-limitation...what you-yourself are prevented from doing to satisfy your own (natural) human compulsions...fuck, pee, drink, sleep.
I do all four of those things, without relying on, or being controlled by the system, to do them. Perhaps all but eating, the system has advantageously taken control of that through grocery stores maintained by advanced agriculture.

I suppose i could take care of my need to eat as well, by hunting, but advanced technology has destroyed most of the animal species, or imprisoned them in zoos and preservation camps, so i believe that would be rather difficult.
So you hate The System for its imposition over your "freedom" to live as an animal? Is Man a beast of Nature, or of his own Fate?

Let me ask once again: why do you hate The System? I view it as a monstrous, biological organism, "The Leviathan". Do you envy its strength?


system-hater wrote:
Quote :
It is ironic to me how some people find Great Power to be a game...when it is not so fun to put your own life on the line in vain.
The battle for survival has been suppressed.
Perhaps...but I am not so certain of that.

I would describe the process like this: The battle for survival has become abstracted.


system-hater wrote:
Quote :
So what "change" would you enjoy to see...SH, if you had the power to instigate the change???
The abolishment of all if not most of the technology that interferes with human life.
"human life"???

Or just your own, personal life...?


system-hater wrote:
Quote :
Then gather your allies and prepare for war, if that is what you want, dragon slayer.

Or become a dragon.
It is difficult to gather allies when they have been severely conditioned to view the Dragon as a benign entity.

But all i can do is continue to learn and perhaps i can figure out how to convince them otherwise.
Convincing people is easy, SH...

Defeating mystical beasts that never existed in the first place...is the difficult part.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:40 pm

kriswest wrote:
ROFL Lazy how would having time to explore the world and learn be lazy, how would taking that education and assisting others be lazy?
If I recall correctly, then it was *YOU* who were the one complaining about a lack of time.

That signals to me that you are just too lazy to make the appropriate sacrifices to do what you desire.

You tied yourself to your personal obligations, nobody else made that choice for you, did they???


kriswest wrote:
If I had started exporing and truly learning this world when I was born i would still be in Southern South America if that was my starting point. 45 yers is not long enough a life time is not long enough. To learn all I can about earth sociology anthropopology philosophy and bring it to a point where it is useful would take many life times. All the great minds you talk about above have such a tiny perspective on humanity. Each is only a small part of what is. It is merely the beginning of the puzzle. to apply such small perspectives to life with out understanding that they are mere pieces warps your own life. Use them but do not abuse them.
You are the one who abuses these voices, by discounting them, and labeling them as "small".

No two minds are alike. As such, some men possess the Mental Power to account for hundreds, thousands, or even *BILLIONS* of other men.

If one man, a Philosopher, can as such change the course of Human History so decisively, then I shall say he is indeed a Man of Intellect, nothing more or less.


But you, Kriswest, would call such men "small" and "tiny" because you-yourself are jealous of abilities you cannot possess or comprehend.


kriswest wrote:
If you had read and paid attention to what you read from the Dr. you would understand there were no idealogies as such but social philosphies for young minds to grasp. No manipulation is in them UR just life lessons.
Green eggs and ham: With out fleshing them out ,the main philosphical point in that one is: Fear by association can be a trap.. The minor ones are trust issues and persistance /stubbornness when dealing with others.
That is incorrect.

"Dr. Seuss" was a Sophist, much like many other famous Philosophers, who wanted to make a quick-dollar off his ideas, and did so.

But it is too easy for Philosophers to become Sophists. The Genuine Thinkers are defined by Purpose, and not Money.

But since you are a materialistic woman; I would not expect you to know anything about this Concept.


kriswest wrote:
Is that trite? No not hardly, its not even close to idealogy nor manipulation of young heads, it is simply philosophical truths that all humans should learn. If you read them you learned them wether you know it now or not.
"all humans should learn"???

According to who??? According to what Moral Authority??? You, Kriswest???

I apologize but I do not bow before your Socialist propaganda, Kris. I am beyond this programming.

Dr. Seuss wrote books with pretty pictures. There is not much else there. Good parents are the Parents here, not socialist propaganda.


kriswest wrote:
All philosphers are out to educate and change minds,
Is that a fact...?

And what motivations do Philosophers have to *DESIRE* to "help educate" armies of followers (children) or to "change minds" (through propaganda)?

The sacrifice for Philosophical Knowledge, and thus Power, is a killing of your mortal desires, lest you go insane under the weight of Purely Reasoned Inquiry.

Count to infinity and tell me how far you get before you give up, woman. Now imagine that you had kept on going, without food, water, or a pat on the back.


kriswest wrote:
a young mind is not any more vunerable to words as such than an older mind desperately reaching out to understand.
This is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard in my adult life.

Give me your child, at age 2, and see how much influence I have on him instead of if he were given to me at 18.

Your socialist propaganda, and your "education" Kriswest, have already dominated the weak minds of your children.

I have no doubt you have grown fine slaves to be utilized to The Machine you pay homage to.


kriswest wrote:
As you both have admitted to doing.
And you ignore the difference between a child and an Adult Male...

So be it; that is your mistake and failure to understand.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 10:27 pm

Quote :
[quote="Unreasonable"]
system-hater wrote:
The State is operated by man, man sates his own pleasures whether it be through what the state sanctions or not. a duality encompasses this code of responsibility that is The State-run by man-and "Man"-who runs himself. No other third source of responsibility.

But do the men who run The State actually run themselves...or must sacrifices of "civility" be made in order for them to usurp these positions of power???

Would Obama have won the US presidency if he were unmarried, an Atheist, and an Alcoholic???


Sacrifices, civil/personal, must always be made as a cost for supremacy. I doubt (hypothetically) if Obama had suffered those life ailments, he would have gained entrance to the presidential office; in addition, I also doubt being unmarried, an Atheist or an Alcoholic are considered to be “civil” in the eyes of propagandized civility, however to each his own definition.

Quote :
However, my "real" question is/was, which path is preferred and more likely to be protected? -Man's responsibility over Himself, or the states responsibility over Him?

If you insist upon a mutuality of this question, I suppose that is fine.

I would say, realistically, the States responsibility over Man is more protected and preferred among the political realm, which usually supersedes the Public. In other words, governmental opinion wins over.

The utilitarians have made this clear, and unfortunately, their word carries much rhetorical power over the placation of the masses.


Quote :
So you hate The System for its imposition over your "freedom" to live as an animal?

Firstly, the restriction of “hunting” was another example-crucial in my view-how the system has interfered with the human instinctual condition. The fight for food, has been depleted to the acceptance/exploitation of it; in turn our urges are hampered and strapped down.

Secondly, hunting for the sake of sustenance substantiates a life as an animal?

Quote :
Is Man a beast of Nature, or of his own Fate?

Both I would say.

Quote :
Let me ask once again: why do you hate The System?


I hate the state the system has evolved into. Which is an undignified, decadent, empty, and culturally deteriorated social order.


Quote :
I view it as a monstrous, biological organism, "The Leviathan". Do you envy its strength?

Hobbes viewed it in much the same manner. Which I would imagine constituted the illustration on the book itself.

no I do not envy, its strength. “It” being a conglomeration of a human populace.

I accept it for what it is.


Quote :
system-hater wrote:
Quote :
It is ironic to me how some people find Great Power to be a game...when it is not so fun to put your own life on the line in vain.
The battle for survival has been suppressed.
Perhaps...but I am not so certain of that.

I would describe the process like this: The battle for survival has become abstracted.

Perhaps both.


Quote :
system-hater wrote:
Quote :
So what "change" would you enjoy to see...SH, if you had the power to instigate the change???
The abolishment of all if not most of the technology that interferes with human life.

"human life"???

Or just your own, personal life...?

Human life.

Is man a self-dictating creature by nature? Has not motorized traffic grievances, technological urbanization, and overly-strict laws and regulations interfered with his ability to be just that?

In relevance to “advanced” society, Unreasonable, how has human life *NOT* been damaged or interfered with?

Quote :

Convincing people is easy, SH...

Convincing people “individually” yes, I could say that’s simple.

Convincing people “collectively”….that’s a much harder task.

Quote :
Defeating mystical beasts that never existed in the first place...is the difficult part.

I was speaking metaphorically, but I suppose if I gave my imagination enough time, I could find a way to defeat non-existing creatures.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:25 pm

By the way Unreasonable, I have a few questions of my own in regards to your Human Sexuality essay.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:27 pm

system-hater wrote:
By the way Unreasonable, I have a few questions of my own in regards to your Human Sexuality essay.
Ask away.
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:02 am

Unreasonable wrote:

Ask away.

My first question is: How do you justify that sexuality causes ALL human intereaction?

how does sexuality play into the exchange in every human interaction alone?
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PostSubject: Re: ...   Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:29 am

system-hater wrote:
My first question is: How do you justify that sexuality causes ALL human intereaction?

how does sexuality play into the exchange in every human interaction alone?
Well think about this for a few minutes.

Imagine if you could self-replicate as a means for living forever. Imagine having no sexual urges throughout your life whatsoever.

I do not know if you can relate to this, but, being a male-myself and having loads of testosterone coursing through my body, I feel the need to fuck a lot.

That is natural. And that is what it means to be "male".


If you or I were "Asexual" and could self-replicate our genes, or, evolve without sexual competition, then what use would we have for other people???

In that case, you would be self-sufficient and self-sustaining. You would not *NEED* anything from anybody else, and thus, would entirely lose your interest.


Also you must keep in mind sexuality throughout Human History and how that has played its role up to this day.
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