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 What do you fight for?

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Drone
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PostSubject: What do you fight for?   Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:10 am

I live in the constant pursuit of self-knowledge, awareness, sincerity and lucidity. I aim to become, some day, the ideal honest man. I want to remain lucid and clear-minded in a world of insanity and disease, boredom and sadness. I plan to overcome my own delusions, one by one. I crave for a state of complete indifference to everything that is indifferent to me (that is, almost everything), so that I may die in an ideal state of detachment and mental balance. I want to die as disillusioned as I have hitherto lived.

But...is this an ideal? I don't want to 'change' the world, not even my immediate surroundings. I don't want to help other people with their overcoming their own miseries- I already have mine to care about. I don't have any real expectation in relation to humankind- in fact, i'm almost 99% convinced that humankind is helpless. I don't have a 'cause' and I don't have an 'ideal', I live every single day of my life as if it was the first and the last. And yet I would like to understand why I should want more. Should the absence of an ideal be itself an ideal? Should we be hardcore apologists of conformism when we declare that we're doomed to be 'rebels without a cause'? The answers are not so clear-cut as they may seem at first...

What happens with me when I think about idealists of all kinds is that they are almost always either deluded or hypocritical about their own desires/intentions...No, I do not believe that all idealists are hypocrites or fools, I do not judge all men according to the same standard, I recognize the existence of difference. But the fact is, even though I know there are a lot of people who are honest in their fight for what they believe in, I cannot entirely relate to them because ideals, all ideals, blind our eyes and kill our natural sense of independence/insubordination. OK, without an ideal, what do we have to 'rebel' against? Domination, mental/intellectual control of our lives. We may not have a soul, and we may not be risking eternal redemption with every single act of ours, but we still have something- our shred of self-consciousness, the source of our lucidity, the place where our sense of awareness takes place. That's exactly what an ideal can steal from us- our lucidity and our desire to control ourselves, since we cannot control anything else in the world. You may commence with a simple desire to alter/change a situation that does not seem to be right/fair for you in the world (say, the fight for women's right, the fight against poverty, pedophilia, etc) but if you are not able to understand the precarious nature of this fight, if you do not accept how much you compromise yourself with it, then you are destined to be blind, and to take others with you. And then, as a result, you have all the inevitable tragic consequences of such fixed ideas, when they are translated in real life- hate, prejudice, violence, murder, mental insanity- everything that a lucid man should fight against.

Though I live alone, and with a definite feeling that i'll never be able to 'belong' to any herd, to any group of people, because they bother me and they make me feel like going away from this world, I still fight for some things I think are worth my time/effort. I don't know if this could make an idealist out of me, because at the bottom of my heart, I accept that i'm fighting for things I'll never be able to achieve entirely (though the possibility of becoming a completely lucid man is very interesting) while the idealist does not accept that, and really lives with the obsessed thought of changing something in the world, altering reality, when an honest man already has a problem big enough if he just wants to understand, to know and to control himself...

............................................................................................................................................

so what say you? Any thoughts/comments?
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PostSubject: Re: What do you fight for?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:44 am

Drone wrote:
I live in the constant pursuit of self-knowledge, awareness, sincerity and lucidity. I aim to become, some day, the ideal honest man.

Give me an explaination what this "ideal honest man" would consist of or even how he would live? And what makes you think its possible for anyone to become such a thing as that?


Quote :
I plan to overcome my own delusions, one by one.

What are these delusions?

Quote :
I crave for a state of complete indifference to everything that is indifferent to me

So in other words, you wish to live in self-absorbed carelessness towards a world that does not care about you. That is what you are striving for?

Quote :
(that is, almost everything), so that I may die in an ideal state of detachment and mental balance. I want to die as disillusioned as I have hitherto lived.

explain to me how it is possible to live "detached" and retain "mental balance" at the same time? If your mind is not within a realm of concious perception, how can balance be present?



But...is this an ideal? I don't want to 'change' the world, not even my immediate surroundings. I don't want to help other people with their overcoming their own miseries- I already have mine to care about. I don't have any real expectation in relation to humankind-

Quote :
in fact, i'm almost 99% convinced that humankind is helpless.

Humankind is not helpless, perhaps subdued by systematic life, but not helpless. Where does this idea come from?

Quote :
I don't have a 'cause' and I don't have an 'ideal',


What do you have?

Quote :
I live every single day of my life as if it was the first and the last. And yet I would like to understand why I should want more. Should the absence of an ideal be itself an ideal? Should we be hardcore apologists of conformism when we declare that we're doomed to be 'rebels without a cause'? The answers are not so clear-cut as they may seem at first...

Ok so give me your ideas of WHAT these answers could be?

Quote :
What happens with me when I think about idealists of all kinds is that they are almost always either deluded or hypocritical about their own desires/intentions...No, I do not believe that all idealists are hypocrites or fools, I do not judge all men according to the same standard, I recognize the existence of difference. But the fact is, even though I know there are a lot of people who are honest in their fight for what they believe in, I cannot entirely relate to them because ideals, all ideals, blind our eyes and kill our natural sense of independence/insubordination.

Why this prejudice towards "idealism"? You shun people who fortify thier character with high standards of life and personal principles? What do you have against that? If you hold negativity to idealism, and people who are "idealists" than you appearently are not striving to become this "ideal honest man" as you claim, considering he would be "ideal".

Quote :
OK, without an ideal, what do we have to 'rebel' against? Domination, mental/intellectual control of our lives. We may not have a soul, and we may not be risking eternal redemption with every single act of ours, but we still have something- our shred of self-consciousness, the source of our lucidity, the place where our sense of awareness takes place. *That's exactly what an ideal can steal from us*-

Like the "ideal honest man" you wish to be?

Quote :
since we cannot control anything else in the world.

Why would you think this?


Quote :
And then, as a result, you have all the inevitable tragic consequences of such fixed ideas, when they are translated in real life- hate, prejudice, violence, murder, mental insanity- everything that a lucid man should fight against.

And WHY should a lucid man fight against these things? what makes these particular aspects of humanity his goal to battle? why are they bad?

Quote :
because they bother me and they make me feel like going away from this world, I still fight for some things I think are worth my time/effort.

And what is worth your time and effort?

Quote :
I don't know if this could make an idealist out of me, because at the bottom of my heart, I accept that i'm fighting for things I'll never be able to achieve entirely (though the possibility of becoming a completely lucid man is very interesting)

An "ideal honest man" or a "completely lucid man"? Which of these two are you pursuing?

Quote :
while the idealist does not accept that, and really lives with the obsessed thought of changing something in the world, altering reality,

What makes you assume this?

Quote :
when an honest man already has a problem big enough if he just wants to understand, to know and to control himself...

What is this honest man you are speaking of? And how does he differ from other people?




Drone,
It seems to me you have incidentially created MANY holes in this post. First, you approximate your intention of becoming this "ideal honest man", that you did not explain, only mentioned, and than point the finger at idealism and all who attribute to it. THAN, you change direction and discuss this "lucid man", which you did not accurately expound on at all. And in addition to all of this, you hold animosity towards such social dysfucntions as: pedophilia, violence, poverty, mental insanity, prejudice, without realising that EVERYONE has prejudices and violence is and has been a driving force of the human race since the dawn of primitivism. Moreover, you harbor prejudice towards "idealism" yourself and yet you venerate fighting against prejudice. You also maintain this odd discursive literate demeaner, that baffles me. You skip from one thing to the next, "ideal honest man" to "having delusions", to "completely lucid man", to being indifferent towards the world in general, to fighting against sociological greivances which would contradict being "indifferent".

What are you trying to explain here drone? I see nothing of consistent viewpoints or standpoints at all.



............................................................................................................................................

so what say you? Any thoughts/comments?[/quote]
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PostSubject: Re: What do you fight for?   Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:29 am

hi system-hater

system-hater wrote:
Drone,
It seems to me you have incidentially created MANY holes in this post. First, you approximate your intention of becoming this "ideal honest man", that you did not explain, only mentioned, and than point the finger at idealism and all who attribute to it. THAN, you change direction and discuss this "lucid man", which you did not accurately expound on at all. And in addition to all of this, you hold animosity towards such social dysfucntions as: pedophilia, violence, poverty, mental insanity, prejudice, without realising that EVERYONE has prejudices and violence is and has been a driving force of the human race since the dawn of primitivism. Moreover, you harbor prejudice towards "idealism" yourself and yet you venerate fighting against prejudice. You also maintain this odd discursive literate demeaner, that baffles me. You skip from one thing to the next, "ideal honest man" to "having delusions", to "completely lucid man", to being indifferent towards the world in general, to fighting against sociological greivances which would contradict being "indifferent".

What are you trying to explain here drone? I see nothing of consistent viewpoints or standpoints at all.

you haven't approached this topic adequately, to be honest. This wasn't meant to be a discussion on my viewpoints/standpoints. I would rather that you would come here to expose your own perspectives/ideas, and what is the reason you fight for them...that's why the thread is called What do you fight for? In the OP, i have tried to present what I believe to be my worldview in an accessible manner, though I agree that I haven't been much consistent. I write rather loosely, just like the ideas come to my mind...that's why sometimes I sound pretty confusing. Also I still have many doubts regarding life and my personal convictions, I'm still relatively young and don't think I know everything in the world. But the basic points of my, say, thinking, aren't hard to understand. I am an existentialist and an atheist, a mundane person whose main 'ideal', if it may be called like that, is honest/decent/quiet life in a world full of insanity, pain and boredom. I don't pretend to be anything special, and when I recognize that i'm not, indeed, that I'm just another man-on-the-street, that's the first step towards my ideal of honesty.


So, what do you fight for, system-hater? If you want this to become a conversation between us regarding my ideas/convictions, create a topic for it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you fight for?   Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:26 am

I fight for love of family. I find that if you fight for love you have all the bases covered.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you fight for?   Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:57 am

If my love towards friends and enemies cannot protect the peace and joy in my soul then nothing in the world can.
My flesh? Sooner or later it will be destroyed by something or someone, intentionally, accidentally or by mistake. So I am not worried about it, I already know its end for sure Neutral
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