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 The extinction of individual liberty

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system-hater
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PostSubject: The extinction of individual liberty   Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:19 pm

Hello gentlemen. And ladies (how few of you there may be)

In this post, i will contend that our freedom in society has been abolished by the socio-technological system. Firstly, this "socio-technological system" simply means, the superficial, materialistic society that we presently live in, which has processed our values, beliefs, codes and ways of living. Advertising, marketing and entertainment industries have influenced us and affected our psyches to suit expectations of the social machine. moreover, we have lost our ability to forsee these issues of mass behavioral modification and regulation and if we can forsee them, we are far too entanced by obediance to care about thier danger to us.

Secondly, we thrive in a society that forces us to base the quality of our personality and of our character on menial and trivial success. Careers, hobbies, and jobs, all are intangible, meaningless pathways GIVEN to us by society to pursue and invest our lives into. We can no longer discover or create who we are, we may only SELECT who we are in accordance with societal impositions. The fact that we are creative by nature will not be argued or negated here, what will be argued are the activities in themselves that are meaningless, fruitless and altogether detrimental to our intrinsic spirits. Futher susbsistance of such a system of behavioral influence will continue to keep us pliable and docile, garnering more compliance.


Now to be clear, the society i speak of here will be consistent to "advanced society" and not "ancient society" which would be post-promordial. So as to dispel any confusion. Extrapolation from the life of "ancient society" will probably be nessesary to support much of my contentions, however i am unable to determine until posts have been written.

Post away gents and lassies!
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PostSubject: Re: The extinction of individual liberty   Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:04 am

Who is this collective-we that you speak upon their behalf???

And what makes you think todays civilized world is any different than the civilized world two millenniums ago???
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PostSubject: Re: The extinction of individual liberty   Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:18 pm

Quote :
Unreasonable wrote:
Who is this collective-we that you speak upon their behalf???

Not so much "thier" behalf unreasonable, but "our" behalf. The "we" would be the civilization i speak of as it has been evolved today. "we" simply means "us" as a whole in present society. You, me, ALL of us that endure and tolerate advanced society in its current state.

Quote :
And what makes you think todays civilized world is any different than the civilized world two millenniums ago???

Hahaha, quite a HUGE difference in fact! Is that a joke? Our civilization has metamorphosed into an era of irrevocable and astronomical advancement from pre-advanced society. Now it is important to illustrate the distinction between "advanced society" and "ancient society", because they are most certainly NOT equivalent. Granted they share some similarities in terms of industrialisation and agriculture and government, but present society has acheived levels of technological refinement and behaviorial influence above and beyond anything that was ever instituted in ancient time periods.

The two worlds vary from this outlook. In ancient society, large communities existed and erections of immense architecture were developed. farming was primitive and had not yet reached a scale of "advanced technological" progress so to speak. Collective society did come together and thrived, but their sociological mores and norms retained a deeper level of value and appreciation, due to the fact that large-scale, "systematic" technology did not exist (i.e. motorized transportation, telecommunication, advertising, marketing, "technological projected entertainment" etc) to interfere with the nuturing and cultivation of our human relationships and individuality. our lives were richer and flourished with meaning and culture. In our "advanced society" we have lost our values, and retained only our feverish need for mass production and artificial demand which damages our valued relationships and human bond, distracting us from people we care about and deteriorating our freedom to discover and create who we are. and it reduces into mere devices for contribution and labor.

Now of course, "advanced technology" was developed and molded from "primitive technology" this should be noted. However, "primitive technology" existed and was manintained FAR much longer than "advanced technology", which would compute that our technology before the advancment of it, was more meaningful to our lives and much more acceptable by way of preserving our freedom and individuality, but now it has been taken to vicious, subversive extremes of destruction and has infected our lives and decayed our freedom. We know only how to fucntion now, and have forgotten how to live.
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PostSubject: Re: The extinction of individual liberty   Sat Feb 28, 2009 2:26 am

system-hater wrote:
Unreasonable wrote:
Who is this collective-we that you speak upon their behalf???

Not so much "thier" behalf unreasonable, but "our" behalf. The "we" would be the civilization i speak of as it has been evolved today. "we" simply means "us" as a whole in present society. You, me, ALL of us that endure and tolerate advanced society in its current state.
You answer about civilization is good enough for now. The principal behind the ancient and modern may or may not be the same, has modernity changes society just quantitatively or qualitatively as well? But let's not overlook this pronoun issue as it is very directly related.

'I' is very much connected to modernity. It is the alienation. This alienation is then used to impose an even more subtle and dictatorial 'we'.

"They? Who's they?" We here this cliché everyday. Not so often do we here, "I? Who's I?"

For a long time I distinguished in an erroneous way between peasants, modern-man and a free-man. My class analysis was naïve and dualistic. Anarchism is not primitivism, it took me a long time to remember that. An animal is not a free-man (for lack of a better word). Though I do agree that modern society is very very harmful.

Because suffering exists in the world, we can speculate that a future society of humanity will not overcome God and science and create a perfect world, one that eliminates all suffering even from the past. This is a chilling fact. One to me that suggests that humanity will fail totally (at some time in the future) in it's march towards goodness and justness and freedom.

Therefore, some less than ideal calculation may be need made, alienation is a less severe issue than exploitation; and exploitation is less severer than ecological or atmospheric failure, if a Red Spot forms on Earth we can just forget about our worries about alienation and exloitation, we'll all be blown away. But then you may object that they are all related...
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PostSubject: Re: The extinction of individual liberty   Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:46 am

Quote :
has modernity changes society just quantitatively or qualitatively as well?

Both. If we regard overpopulation, (we should), as a quantitative reparation of modern society, than that goes without question. Excessive production of artificial trades and merchaindise would also count. And Qualitative, abso-freaking-loutly. Its not simply our culture and freedom that has been devestated by our hopeless distraction for business and degrading jobs, but the life of the planet itself is reaching a point of no return due to the destructive technological system.

Quote :
'I' is very much connected to modernity. It is the alienation. This alienation is then used to impose an even more subtle and dictatorial 'we'.

This is a sensible insight. I agree.


Quote :
Anarchism is not primitivism, it took me a long time to remember that. An animal is not a free-man (for lack of a better word).

True. But there can be an agregation of the two. For example, Theodore Kaczynski-the UNAbomber-considered himself to be an "anarcho-primitivist", meaning that his aim was to dismantle society into dimunitive units of people(that anarchism advocates) while ALSO returning to the life of unrestrained primitive existence, (hunting, gathering). And i'm not sure i agree, with an animal not having freedom. Humans are on a much different plane of consiousness than animals of course, however the likelihood that an "animal" has no actual "awarness" that he is free, wouldn't nessesarily mean that he has no freedom. He is not imprisioned, he can roam where he pleases and he may hunt and kill what he pleases. Freedom, means being unrestrained, especially by any artificial system, such as the socio-technological. If we were to return to a way of life that involved living primitively, we would experiance this true freedom, but we would not "devolve" back into animals as a result.

Quote :
Because suffering exists in the world, we can speculate that a future society of humanity will not overcome God and science and create a perfect world, one that eliminates all suffering even from the past.

I'm not so sure about this. Behavioral modification has acheived degrees of progress unlike anything we've seen. "Healthy educational programs" are being implemented by scientific psychologists to refine a childs behavior and "polish" him throughly to become an object of society. These conivving "programs" are meant to purge any negative feelings that a child may have about society and replace them with positive ones, quite literally constructing them into these "pristine" citizens of a "good" community. IF these type of programs continue to refine and become more effective (which we can saftly assume they will) we will actually begin to notice something of a "perfect society" coming to fruition. Just consider sex education, or drug education, and especially relationship education. In addition, suffering of the past may even be influenced and resolved, we experiment with solutions to every problem, like amnesia, and apply those solutions to real methods of configuring brain circuitry, which might lead to a solution regarding "bad memories."

.
Quote :
One to me that suggests that humanity will fail totally (at some time in the future) in it's march towards goodness and justness and freedom.

I totally agree. This system WILL collapse sonner or later, but in the meantime, we WILL find ways to make it better. If we have to destroy everything and everybody, haha, we WILL find ways.
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PostSubject: Re: The extinction of individual liberty   Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:33 am

system-hater wrote:
Both. If we regard overpopulation, (we should), as a quantitative reparation of modern society, than that goes without question. Excessive production of artificial trades and merchaindise would also count. And Qualitative, abso-freaking-loutly. Its not simply our culture and freedom that has been devestated by our hopeless distraction for business and degrading jobs, but the life of the planet itself is reaching a point of no return due to the destructive technological system.
Agree; though not sure about the qualitative-quantitative...

The world's largest sailing ship, the Sedov, is only a quantitative improvement on the Egyptial ships of sail used fifty-five hundred years ago.

If I line up 8742 bottles, or a giga-bottles, or 125000000000000 bottles, or a centillion bottles; or stack them in three-dimensions, I haven't improved any on the bottle, only the quantity.

Whether an engine is two-stroke, four-stroke, five-stroke or six-stroke, whether it is run on gasoline, coal dust, hydrogen or biobutanol, whether the engine uses V, H, U, X or W configuration, it is still essentially the same internal combustion engine that Karl Benz used in 1879 in the first production automobiles.

If the Universe is not finite, and 600 years is not the upper limit for the exponential growth of transistors on an integrated circuit re., Moore's Law; and I place a Graham's number of yocto-transistors in 11 dimensions, it is still essentially the same transistor envisioned by Lilienfeld in 1925 and first actually constructed by Bell Labs in 1947.

Quote :
to dismantle society into dimunitive units of people(that anarchism advocates) while ALSO returning to the life of unrestrained primitive existence
Some do. Others taught/teach a World Organization....

Quote :
Freedom, means being unrestrained, especially by any artificial system, such as the socio-technological. If we were to return to a way of life that involved living primitively, we would experiance this true freedom, but we would not "devolve" back into animals as a result.
In a vacuum I imagine we would not evolve? In a world made just to our needs maybe also not?

Quote :
Quote :
Because suffering exists in the world, we can speculate that a future society of humanity will not overcome God and science and create a perfect world, one that eliminates all suffering even from the past.

I'm not so sure about this. Behavioral modification has acheived degrees of progress...
Sorry, I meant something a little different, what the cosmologists call the anthropic principal, making deductions about the Universe from the fact of my being in it. The Jehovah's Witnesses say something like this: at the end of time, science will put back together the DNA of every living person and bring them back to life in a heaven on Earth. This may happen, that there is suffering in the world is consistent with the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that it will be after this life that suffering will be gone from. But since there is suffering in the world now, we know that some perfect and moral human race of the future will not go back and erase all suffering from existence, even the past. Clearly they didn't/won't do that because suffering is. Perhaps there will be a great success of humanity in the future, but time travel is impossible even for super-future beings and so this was not done... or perhaps these future beings did not want to destroy the pleasant dukkha?

Quote :
I'm not so sure about this. Behavioral modification has acheived degrees of progress unlike anything we've seen. "Healthy educational programs" are being implemented by scientific psychologists to refine a childs behavior and "polish" him throughly to become an object of society. These conivving "programs" are meant to purge any negative feelings that a child may have about society and replace them with positive ones, quite literally constructing them into these "pristine" citizens of a "good" community.
This is discussed here too if you're curious, http://dissidentsphilosophy.alldiscussion.net/sociology-f10/segregation-society-the-means-of-enforced-inequality-and-prejudice-within-the-education-system-t93.htm

Quote :
IF these type of programs continue to refine and become more effective (which we can saftly assume they will) we will actually begin to notice something of a "perfect society" coming to fruition
But doesn't this contradict the above? Or we can say that both a society of total order and one of total anarchy would be the same? Or at least both happy...?


Quote :
...we experiment with solutions to every problem, like amnesia, and apply those solutions to real methods of configuring brain circuitry, which might lead to a solution regarding "bad memories."
An amnesia pill would be about as radical as Pol Pot, or a cull; let's put that on the back-burner until less extreme options are showen to be futile.... Or has that time certainly passed?

Quote :
This system WILL collapse sonner or later, but in the meantime, we WILL find ways to make it better. If we have to destroy everything and everybody, haha, we WILL find ways.
Over all it looks we have arrived at many common realizations.
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