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Ivan
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PostSubject: Eco-terrorism   Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:40 am



Eco-terrorism

The Earth is doomed.

This ought to be plain to anyone who is sane.

Saving the Earth is the only important moral problem of our time. (There will be no moral problems to worry about otherwise.)

Atmospheric failure would be my guess, ETA five to fifteen years. There may be no time even for the Illuminati to escape underground or into space (assuming that the Earth's destruction is intentional).

To what degree is violence justified? A global cull could reduce population quickly. Uncontacted tribes still exist, so it would be possible to destroy everything and some would never be the wiser that all this had happened. Or is a compromise possible, maybe a world of agriculture, parks and zoos, with no wild plants or animals? In fact, is there even enough time to build underground bunkers for a few, or a spaceship?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:46 am

Huh?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:28 pm

Do you or don't you see that essentially all life on earth will soon be finished?



Even, will anyone escape?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:14 pm

Quote :
Saving the Earth is the only important moral problem of our time. (There will be no moral problems to worry about otherwise.)

At this rate the world cannot be saved due to man's interfering with it.

In a sort of cynical way I see no point in saving the world as it does not need to be saved.

If we make the world un-inhabitable nature will have it's last say in the end where it will be us who will need the saving.

More importantly I think a better question would be: Who will save humanity from itself?

Quote :
Atmospheric failure would be my guess, ETA five to fifteen years.

Some scientists seem to think so.

Of course since they are questioning authority their reviews are always left to hang in the fringe.

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To what degree is violence justified?

I've always been under the impression that violence justifies itself. It is getting caught that is a bitch.

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A global cull could reduce population quickly.

That's never going to happen.

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Uncontacted tribes still exist,

They're the lucky ones to escape the utter absurdity of civilization.

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or a spaceship?

There's nowhere to escape in space. And even if there was you still have the problem of cosmic entropy two hundred billion years from now that is unavoidable.

( Read some quantum physics on the subject.)
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Serge
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:50 am

I used to think, the Earth is doomed.

So didn't worry too much about it; I am doomed, and space-time may be doomed too.

Then I thought, maybe there is a chance to save it, and humanity might get past the 21st century?

In that case, some very radical action will be required.
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:00 pm

The earth will be fine. Humans? well there's certainly allot of anxiety about disaster out there from allot of experts. Personally as far as the environment goes at least I do see paying for our mistakes and probably setting ourselves back a few years. I think that humans will be resourceful enough to survive as a race but this is at best an educated guess. It will be slow process however, none of this day after tomorrow nonsense. Sounds like a good adventure to me. As a conservationist most people would find this statement a bit odd, but the good conservationist realises that man cannot beat nature, the best we can do is role with the punches.
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:12 pm

Sorry, let me put this in the strongest form,

You are going to suffocate starving under a burning cancerous sun before you see age thirty-five.

Do you have bigger worries? This is the Apocalypse, "the end times." It had to come some time.



What happened tomorrow?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Fri Jan 23, 2009 2:30 am

Serge wrote:
Sorry, let me put this in the strongest form,

You are going to suffocate starving under a burning cancerous sun before you see age thirty-five.

Do you have bigger worries? This is the Apocalypse, "the end times." It had to come some time.



What happened tomorrow?

Provide evidence so we can debate this
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:30 am

Rhinoboy wrote:
Provide evidence so we can debate this

Don't play games with me! Get out much? Have a look around.
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:36 am

Serge wrote:
Rhinoboy wrote:
Provide evidence so we can debate this

Don't play games with me! Get out much? Have a look around.

I dont see how its that obvious that I am going to die in 11 years. There is no reason to think this
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:15 am

Rhinoboy wrote:


I dont see how its that obvious that I am going to die in 11 years. There is no reason to think this
There is no "reason" to think this. Science can not show it with certainty one way or another.

Do you get out much? Have you seen a large mammal recently? A primary growth forest? Water you could drink? A sky without a touch of green?

What you are seeing I'd think is a lot of cement and cars. Out of the megacities you see scrub-land that was clear-cut a decade or more ago and is now devoid of life, unless someone wants to count the millions of plastic bags flitting about as a species?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:42 pm

Serge wrote:
Rhinoboy wrote:


I dont see how its that obvious that I am going to die in 11 years. There is no reason to think this
There is no "reason" to think this. Science can not show it with certainty one way or another.

Do you get out much? Have you seen a large mammal recently? A primary growth forest? Water you could drink? A sky without a touch of green?

What you are seeing I'd think is a lot of cement and cars. Out of the megacities you see scrub-land that was clear-cut a decade or more ago and is now devoid of life, unless someone wants to count the millions of plastic bags flitting about as a species?

I live in the countryside near Stonehenge, I could milk a cow before I learned to write, I feel very out of place in a city and spent much of my childhood fun playing on hay bales. I have knowledge of the global environment and that I have studied and worked in the area, I have told you that I have concerns about the change in climate and that there will be little we can do about it. I think you need to keep the assumptions to a minimum.
Further, nothing you have said means that I am going to die in the very near future, it seems you have no more clout behind your argument than a crystal ball, and that's something else I learnt in my childhood on the farm. Not to trust gypsy magic jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:48 pm

Rhinoboy wrote:
I live in the countryside near Stonehenge, I could milk a cow before I learned to write...
How much dioxin in that milk?

Quote :
I have told you that I have concerns about the change in climate and that there will be little we can do about it.
Sorry you feel that way. I have hope.

Quote :
...nothing you have said means that I am going to die in the very near future, it seems you have no more clout behind your argument than a crystal ball, and that's something else I learnt in my childhood on the farm.
Nothing anyone or any scientist says proves a think here. There is no certain evidence. Waiting or it will mean doom.

This thread is called Eco-terrorism for a reason. For those of us who are committed to saving life on Earth, what do you think we're supposed to do with the resisters?

Quote :
Not to trust gypsy magic jocolor
I am Roma. So that's not really that funny to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:02 am

Serge wrote:
Rhinoboy wrote:
I live in the countryside near Stonehenge, I could milk a cow before I learned to write...
How much dioxin in that milk?

Quote :
I have told you that I have concerns about the change in climate and that there will be little we can do about it.
Sorry you feel that way. I have hope.

Quote :
...nothing you have said means that I am going to die in the very near future, it seems you have no more clout behind your argument than a crystal ball, and that's something else I learnt in my childhood on the farm.
Nothing anyone or any scientist says proves a think here. There is no certain evidence. Waiting or it will mean doom.

This thread is called Eco-terrorism for a reason. For those of us who are committed to saving life on Earth, what do you think we're supposed to do with the resisters?

Quote :
Not to trust gypsy magic jocolor
I am Roma. So that's not really that funny to me.

On the one hand you say that the earth will be inhabitable in 10 years, on the other you say that there is hope, please clarify your belifes because if you hold true to them both there is no point in carrying on this conversation as you have no idea of ecological cliamte change
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:10 am

Serge wrote:

Quote :
I have told you that I have concerns about the change in climate and that there will be little we can do about it.
Sorry you feel that way. I have hope.

As do I however I understand climate change and realise that promoting global ecological wellbeing is not about stopping the problems like global warming etc but slowing the process and preparing for the changes that will confrount us. The human race cannot overcome climate change, not at this point in our development and cirtainly not for a very ling time to come, if ever. We must dance to mother natures tune, not the other way around
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:11 am

Serge wrote:


This thread is called Eco-terrorism for a reason. For those of us who are committed to saving life on Earth, what do you think we're supposed to do with the resisters?

As an active conservationist, how do you propose that I am a resister?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:00 pm

Rhinoboy wrote:
On the one hand you say that the earth will be inhabitable in 10 years, on the other you say that there is hope, please clarify your belifes because if you hold true to them both there is no point in carrying on this conversation as you have no idea of ecological cliamte change
I suppose I can grant you that both are not true, but there is just no certain criteria to decide by. I can believe that the Earth is at the point of Apocalypse, but hope that there is still a chance. What do I lose by hoping? Go down fighting, right?

Quote :
As do I however I understand climate change and realise that promoting global ecological wellbeing is not about stopping the problems like global warming etc but slowing the process and preparing for the changes that will confrount us.
I advise you not to mitigate. When you here "just a small change in the way you live" you ought to scoff. Small changes such as taking the bus more often or turning down the air-con are useless. "Change" is not going to help; whole-sale destruction of the mega-cities and their infrastructure might.

Interestingly, a nuclear war might be one of the best ways to save humanity, if all the largest urban population centers were suddenly deleted, that would be a very good thing for the Earth's prospects.

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The human race cannot overcome climate change, not at this point in our development and cirtainly not for a very ling time to come, if ever.
"Development."

Quote :
As an active conservationist, how do you propose that I am a resister?
I have no idea how you live. Help me out, what is your annual 'carbon footprint', howmany plastic bottles and CDs did you go through today. How many kilos of plastic and paper waste? What did you have for lunch...?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:56 am

Serge wrote:

I suppose I can grant you that both are not true, but there is just no certain criteria to decide by. I can believe that the Earth is at the point of Apocalypse, but hope that there is still a chance. What do I lose by hoping? Go down fighting, right?
I would agree with that, don't be so apocalyptic in the future and then say that we can all be saved the next moment. It gives a Bi-polar element to your persona and makes it sound like you don't know your stuff.

Quote :

I advise you not to mitigate. When you here "just a small change in the way you live" you ought to scoff.
The small change argument is a large change solution, its a bit of an optimistic brain child that only comes to form if everyone makes that change, unlikely to happen IMO, however it does well to improve awareness of the subject which will come in handy when disasters become more frequent. preparation is key if we want to limit casualties. It also gives people hope, something you would like to keep I would have thought. Small changes also help local communities directly, and also international (not global) problems such as acid rain. These changes will prove very useful if we manage to avoid disaster

Quote :
"Change" is not going to help; whole-sale destruction of the mega-cities and their infrastructure might.
I doubt it, especially as destruction generally means high release of undesirables into the atmosphere. Unless you undermine society in a more covert way, but lets be honest, what is the likelihood of that happening. I'd be more willing to put my money on turning off your air-con

Quote :
Interestingly, a nuclear war might be one of the best ways to save humanity, if all the largest urban population centres were suddenly deleted, that would be a very good thing for the Earth's prospects.
A nuclear war would most likely wipe humanity out, we have enough nukes to wipe out the population of the world many times over, not to mention the destruction that it would cause to eco-systems. As someone concerned about the environment I would have though you would want to avoid a Mass extinction event. http://www.endofworld.net/ This may be a rather immature take on things (made me laugh though) but parts of it are pretty accurate.
There is also a theory that if you fire two A-bombs at the same location we could knock the earth off its axis, which would not bode well for any living thing (at least with environmental degradation life on earth will always go on in some form) I don't know if this is a reliable theory or more Sci-fi but I would not want to risk it personally.

Quote :

Development.
You need to write more than one word here, I don't know what your getting at

Quote :

I have no idea how you live. Help me out, what is your annual 'carbon footprint', how many plastic bottles and CDs did you go through today. How many kilos of plastic and paper waste? What did you have for lunch...?
Put it this way, I calculated my "ecological footprint" before most people knew what a "carbon footprint" was. Anyway I though you were under the impression that little changes were irrelevant. I'm talking about my career, I am a environmental project leader and campaigner, not enough to change the world climate, but no one with that much power starts at the top.

What do you do?
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:44 am

Rhinoboy wrote:
...makes it sound like you don't know your stuff.
I don't. No one knows. Is it getting hotter or not? Is this species extinct or isn't it? Is the sea rising or humidity is rising? And so on. Use your intuition on this one.

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The small change argument is a large change solution,
What the fuck! Are you a TV advertisment?

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its a bit of an optimistic brain child that only comes to form if everyone makes that change
Nice sales pitch.

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it does well to improve awareness of the subject which will come in handy
The only awareness there is in the world on this subject is going to come with guns in people's faces and their SUVs and coal plants exploding.

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preparation is key if we want to limit casualties.
"Take no prisoners. Kill the wounded." That must have been a funny joke when they took the Jews out to shoot. It isn't from hate for humanity that we cull him, but love.


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Small changes also help local communities directly, and also international (not global) problems such as acid rain. These changes will prove very useful if we manage to avoid disaster
"Very useful"? Shit! I'll buy two!

Quote :
I'd be more willing to put my money on turning off your air-con
Don't gamble on them dying of heat-stroke from global warming. Save your money for guns.

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at least with environmental degradation life on earth will always go on in some form)
No Rhinoboy it won't. Does life continue on Venus where the surface temperature is 300 degrees and the atmosphere is Sulfuric Acid?

This is a lie they tell you, similar to aliens exist.

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I'm talking about my career, I am a environmental project leader and campaigner, not enough to change the world climate, but no one with that much power starts at the top.
A developer. Leave Africa alone!

Quote :
What do you do?
I'm a developer.
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Tue Feb 03, 2009 3:10 pm

Serge wrote:

I don't. No one knows. Is it getting hotter or not? Is this species extinct or isn't it? Is the sea rising or humidity is rising? And so on. Use your intuition on this one.
One can know something without having to know everything


Quote :

The only awareness there is in the world on this subject is going to come with guns in people's faces and their SUVs and coal plants exploding.
Stick to the subject

Quote :

"Take no prisoners. Kill the wounded." That must have been a funny joke when they took the Jews out to shoot. It isn't from hate for humanity that we cull him, but love.
again deviation



Quote :

No Rhinoboy it won't. Does life continue on Venus where the surface temperature is 300 degrees and the atmosphere is Sulfuric Acid?

This is a lie they tell you, similar to aliens exist.
Use you brain. Look at earth's heat over its existence. The current climate and proposed change will do nothing other than shift climates. This will cause real problems for humans, it will most likely cause a mass extinction, but it will not destroy all life. I'm satisfied that you don't know your Environmental science. There is nothing to suggest that this planet will become inhabitable. Remember that life here is diverse and well evolved to deal wit all types of ecosystem. If you can provide something that points to human involvement causing the planet to reach a temperature of 300degrees please tell me, I'm dying to hear it

Quote :

A developer. Leave Africa alone!
I never said i was a developer

Quote :

I'm a developer.
You did
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PostSubject: Re: Eco-terrorism   Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:21 am

Rhinoboy wrote:
Serge wrote:

I don't. No one knows. Is it getting hotter or not? Is this species extinct or isn't it? Is the sea rising or humidity is rising? And so on. Use your intuition on this one.
One can know something without having to know everything
No. That's the problem of infinite regress.


Quote :
Quote :
The only awareness there is in the world on this subject is going to come with guns in people's faces and their SUVs and coal plants exploding.
Stick to the subject
This is the subject: Eco-terrorism.

Quote :
Quote :
"Take no prisoners. Kill the wounded." That must have been a funny joke when they took the Jews out to shoot. It isn't from hate for humanity that we cull him, but love.
again deviation
You're missing my point. I'm saying that the Earth is doomed if radical action doesn't start now. The only way for radical action of have affect is with violence.

Quote :
Quote :
Quote :
life on earth will always go on in some form
No Rhinoboy it won't. Does life continue on Venus where the surface temperature is 300 degrees and the atmosphere is Sulfuric Acid?

This is a lie they tell you, similar to aliens exist.
Use you brain. Look at earth's heat over its existence. The current climate and proposed change will do nothing other than shift climates.
Don't use your brain. Think about it like a three-year-old. Not with the vain and faulty information in books and media that you are trying to reason with.

A developer is a developer.
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